[quote="Jubilee":1zq0o66j]Am I the only one disturbed with the prospect of mutated *women* running around? I mean .. seriously, magical sex change? I can't wait to see Vendrin in a tutu.[/quote:1zq0o66j]
Magical sex change has been around along time in the realms so that does not bother me at all. A sex change in D&D is not a mutation, science does not work in D&D.
If there is nothing wrong with females waering pants, why should there be something wrong with a male wearing a skirt?
Ed Speaks
Moderators: Shir'le E. Illios, Bhaern Quel
Hehe, agreed. I have a friend who actualy finds men in skirts attractive.
That, and 'skirts' have been used in scotland (Other places too, but thats likely the best known) for a long while.
Still, I find the prospect of something that was once one sex, turning into the other a little off putting honestly. But thats just me.
That, and 'skirts' have been used in scotland (Other places too, but thats likely the best known) for a long while.
Still, I find the prospect of something that was once one sex, turning into the other a little off putting honestly. But thats just me.
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Shir'le E. Illios
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It doesn’t bother me that much either. If we can accept goblin priestesses, then why not men in the shape of women (and usually only temporary)?
Besides, this isn’t something for all followers, only those men who wish to become part of her clergy. And, as I understand it, it’s a necessary thing to gain a deeper understanding of her feminine aspects. Ed has previously noted her as being more of a mother goddess, so I’d imagine that (temporary) gender transform would be to help get in touch with their maternal instincts. Or something.
I think it might be important to remember here that it’s just fantasy. Any relation or association you’d have to anything in the real world shouldn’t really have any bearing on how it does in the fantasy world. If the thought of gender change seems off putting to you (which, btw, to me it does not) then consider that this is a world of magic and people are used to [i:1uddpmod]much[/i:1uddpmod] stranger things.
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Shir'le
Besides, this isn’t something for all followers, only those men who wish to become part of her clergy. And, as I understand it, it’s a necessary thing to gain a deeper understanding of her feminine aspects. Ed has previously noted her as being more of a mother goddess, so I’d imagine that (temporary) gender transform would be to help get in touch with their maternal instincts. Or something.
I think it might be important to remember here that it’s just fantasy. Any relation or association you’d have to anything in the real world shouldn’t really have any bearing on how it does in the fantasy world. If the thought of gender change seems off putting to you (which, btw, to me it does not) then consider that this is a world of magic and people are used to [i:1uddpmod]much[/i:1uddpmod] stranger things.
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Shir'le
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Unen_Stealthfoot
- Legend
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[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":lt03iqfg]It doesn’t bother me that much either. If we can accept goblin priestesses, then why not men in the shape of women (and usually only temporary)?
Besides, this isn’t something for all followers, only those men who wish to become part of her clergy. And, as I understand it, it’s a necessary thing to gain a deeper understanding of her feminine aspects. Ed has previously noted her as being more of a mother goddess, so I’d imagine that (temporary) gender transform would be to help get in touch with their maternal instincts. Or something.
I think it might be important to remember here that it’s just fantasy. Any relation or association you’d have to anything in the real world shouldn’t really have any bearing on how it does in the fantasy world. If the thought of gender change seems off putting to you (which, btw, to me it does not) then consider that this is a world of magic and people are used to [i:lt03iqfg]much[/i:lt03iqfg] stranger things.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le[/quote:lt03iqfg]
[color=indigo:lt03iqfg]Yeah, like for example...ummm...like, like.... like how about the Shapechange spell, people turning into balor lords? [i:lt03iqfg]Come on[/i:lt03iqfg].[/color:lt03iqfg]
Besides, this isn’t something for all followers, only those men who wish to become part of her clergy. And, as I understand it, it’s a necessary thing to gain a deeper understanding of her feminine aspects. Ed has previously noted her as being more of a mother goddess, so I’d imagine that (temporary) gender transform would be to help get in touch with their maternal instincts. Or something.
I think it might be important to remember here that it’s just fantasy. Any relation or association you’d have to anything in the real world shouldn’t really have any bearing on how it does in the fantasy world. If the thought of gender change seems off putting to you (which, btw, to me it does not) then consider that this is a world of magic and people are used to [i:lt03iqfg]much[/i:lt03iqfg] stranger things.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le[/quote:lt03iqfg]
[color=indigo:lt03iqfg]Yeah, like for example...ummm...like, like.... like how about the Shapechange spell, people turning into balor lords? [i:lt03iqfg]Come on[/i:lt03iqfg].[/color:lt03iqfg]
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Unen_Stealthfoot
- Legend
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[quote="Jubilee":30qfs9mb]Am I the only one disturbed with the prospect of mutated *women* running around? I mean .. seriously, magical sex change? I can't wait to see Vendrin in a tutu.[/quote:30qfs9mb]
Yea, stuff like that would probably force the Vendrin character to turn away from Eilistraee to Vhaeraun or another god. I mean, am I the only one seeing the hypocrisy here?
Come to the surface and live in the lands above and be happy, but you can only be a cleric if you don't have anything between your legs? Like mother like daughter I suppose.
I mean, I know a lot of guys who can dance way better then any girl can. And the whole sex change thing just kind of makes me want to just run from Eilistraee as far as possible. I mean that's fine in real life if thats what you need to do to live your life, and it's fine in Faerun if that's what your character needs to do to live their lives, but gods forcing it on followers who want to be their agents? Meh. Whatever.
I'm just dissapointed Vhaeraun is the only drow deity who seems to actually believe in gender equality.
edit: Oh and maybe I'm just being bitter here and way out of touch with my femine side, if I have any at all, but I feel most guys transformed into women would just have fun playing with themselves until they got changed back.
Yea, stuff like that would probably force the Vendrin character to turn away from Eilistraee to Vhaeraun or another god. I mean, am I the only one seeing the hypocrisy here?
Come to the surface and live in the lands above and be happy, but you can only be a cleric if you don't have anything between your legs? Like mother like daughter I suppose.
I mean, I know a lot of guys who can dance way better then any girl can. And the whole sex change thing just kind of makes me want to just run from Eilistraee as far as possible. I mean that's fine in real life if thats what you need to do to live your life, and it's fine in Faerun if that's what your character needs to do to live their lives, but gods forcing it on followers who want to be their agents? Meh. Whatever.
I'm just dissapointed Vhaeraun is the only drow deity who seems to actually believe in gender equality.
edit: Oh and maybe I'm just being bitter here and way out of touch with my femine side, if I have any at all, but I feel most guys transformed into women would just have fun playing with themselves until they got changed back.
"What does God want? Does God want goodness or the choice of goodness? Is a man who chooses evil perhaps in some way better than a man who has good imposed upon him?"
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Bhaern Quel
- Demigod
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Well it might be nice for females to spend some time as males to better understand the male experience, that would be more gender equal. Remember the burden on males is not that much.
[quote:2o74rvha] feel the need to take female form for some days every few years or so (if they wish to “cleave more fully to the Goddess” and thus rise in levels), and most spend longer and longer times in female form. [/quote:2o74rvha]
It is not like males need to be female for long periods of time during their lifetime.
One thinking about becoming a Cleric would likely start out testing the female form for just a rictual dance. If they were comfortable with that it appears they would have to spend a day or a few as female to gain fisit Cleric level. Then in male form add many Cleric levels, though not have high position as far as rank with the Clergy. More time spent in female form the higher up a male can advance in rank. It would appear posible in time for a community be lead by a High Priest, that occassionally becomes the High Priestess (every few years)..
Ed was not clear on how much longer each change would increase in duration leaving that very open ended. Based on what was presented most of the time the male will be in male form.
[quote:2o74rvha] feel the need to take female form for some days every few years or so (if they wish to “cleave more fully to the Goddess” and thus rise in levels), and most spend longer and longer times in female form. [/quote:2o74rvha]
It is not like males need to be female for long periods of time during their lifetime.
One thinking about becoming a Cleric would likely start out testing the female form for just a rictual dance. If they were comfortable with that it appears they would have to spend a day or a few as female to gain fisit Cleric level. Then in male form add many Cleric levels, though not have high position as far as rank with the Clergy. More time spent in female form the higher up a male can advance in rank. It would appear posible in time for a community be lead by a High Priest, that occassionally becomes the High Priestess (every few years)..
Ed was not clear on how much longer each change would increase in duration leaving that very open ended. Based on what was presented most of the time the male will be in male form.
I don't really know how I feel about some of what good ole Ed is talking about. Through the years we have all rolled with the changes and for the most part, I personally, come to appreciate the current rules set. But when it comes to changes to the different campaign settings I tend to be more of purist.
First I would like say that both as a DM/GM and as a writer, I have never taken what was said in interviews or written out side that of copy writed source material, as "Errata" or "Supplemental" to what was in the "certified source material".
That being said I go back to my previous comment, I feel myself to be a purist when it comes to thing like this.
Now I know as things in our everyday world change and as ideas about different things change that there will be change in the way we imagine our fantasy worlds. Our dreamscapes will manifest in many ways how we feel about those topics.
As a long time enthusiast of the Forgotten Realms setting thought I tend to remind myself of the atmosphere in which it is set, and how the lives of "common, average" everyday people look. As DM, I try and start each new story with that attitude and let the players fill in the blanks, letting their imagination build the world up (or tear it down,
) and together create a enjoyable place for everyone to come. But being the DM I have to hold things within certain margin, and keep things in line with the genera. Some rules can be bent, other can be broke, but some things are just there for a reason and shouldn't be messed with. In my mind it’s like experimenting with a recipe, some things can be substituted, some things can be added or changed, but at the heart of it there are things about that if messed with alter it completely or don't succeed at all.
Somewhere in there lies some of what Ed’s notions about this Power’s influence. I don’t really find it strange that other races come to worship Eilistraee, nor that males are being accepted as clergy. But I think that the extent of each does. Of course I don’t see any “Good” deity turning away followers based off their sex/race, I can see them limiting their accesses to core of their influence.
Just like a DM managing the genera of a game world, a deity must maintain a core dogma.
In the case of Eilistraee I personally see this as, only Females being able to gain access to the highest and more revered positions in the clergy, and with that critical access of the deity’s sphere of influence. For most part Drow, if not exclusively Drow, in the core clergy, including the male members. I think of it as a pyramid, the closer to the top (each tier) the more exclusively Drow the clergy becomes, and beyond that exclusively female.
Now back to what I said before about bending and breaking rules. The same analogy applies, just like a DM managing the genera of the game world; a deity may decide to make some exceptions where they see something of exceptional merit.
This is where we could see the random non-Drow priest, or even the random male priest that stands in the higher tiers of the church. These exceptions could also come with their exceptional requirements on such individuals. Such as having to make certain sacrifices (not to be read as those in blood, this is Eilistraee after all), or like in what was written using magical transformation to experience what their Female Drow piers have to in order to achieve and maintain their position in the church. Again these are Exceptions.
But it’s all in the imagination of the people involved, and like opinions everyone has their own view, beliefs, ideas, and so on, and that is what the game is about after all.
So like ice cream, pick the flavor(s) you like and fix it up how you want it, as long you enjoy it… but remember when you make alterations to the recipe, it’s hard to call it a Banana Split if you take the Banana out. (no sexual reference intended )
First I would like say that both as a DM/GM and as a writer, I have never taken what was said in interviews or written out side that of copy writed source material, as "Errata" or "Supplemental" to what was in the "certified source material".
That being said I go back to my previous comment, I feel myself to be a purist when it comes to thing like this.
Now I know as things in our everyday world change and as ideas about different things change that there will be change in the way we imagine our fantasy worlds. Our dreamscapes will manifest in many ways how we feel about those topics.
As a long time enthusiast of the Forgotten Realms setting thought I tend to remind myself of the atmosphere in which it is set, and how the lives of "common, average" everyday people look. As DM, I try and start each new story with that attitude and let the players fill in the blanks, letting their imagination build the world up (or tear it down,
) and together create a enjoyable place for everyone to come. But being the DM I have to hold things within certain margin, and keep things in line with the genera. Some rules can be bent, other can be broke, but some things are just there for a reason and shouldn't be messed with. In my mind it’s like experimenting with a recipe, some things can be substituted, some things can be added or changed, but at the heart of it there are things about that if messed with alter it completely or don't succeed at all.Somewhere in there lies some of what Ed’s notions about this Power’s influence. I don’t really find it strange that other races come to worship Eilistraee, nor that males are being accepted as clergy. But I think that the extent of each does. Of course I don’t see any “Good” deity turning away followers based off their sex/race, I can see them limiting their accesses to core of their influence.
Just like a DM managing the genera of a game world, a deity must maintain a core dogma.
In the case of Eilistraee I personally see this as, only Females being able to gain access to the highest and more revered positions in the clergy, and with that critical access of the deity’s sphere of influence. For most part Drow, if not exclusively Drow, in the core clergy, including the male members. I think of it as a pyramid, the closer to the top (each tier) the more exclusively Drow the clergy becomes, and beyond that exclusively female.
Now back to what I said before about bending and breaking rules. The same analogy applies, just like a DM managing the genera of the game world; a deity may decide to make some exceptions where they see something of exceptional merit.
This is where we could see the random non-Drow priest, or even the random male priest that stands in the higher tiers of the church. These exceptions could also come with their exceptional requirements on such individuals. Such as having to make certain sacrifices (not to be read as those in blood, this is Eilistraee after all), or like in what was written using magical transformation to experience what their Female Drow piers have to in order to achieve and maintain their position in the church. Again these are Exceptions.
But it’s all in the imagination of the people involved, and like opinions everyone has their own view, beliefs, ideas, and so on, and that is what the game is about after all.
So like ice cream, pick the flavor(s) you like and fix it up how you want it, as long you enjoy it… but remember when you make alterations to the recipe, it’s hard to call it a Banana Split if you take the Banana out. (no sexual reference intended
)Mend the broken blade of my Father.. to
Recover the lost blade of my Sister.. by
Honoring the silver blade of my Mother.. so
I may Forge my own..
Recover the lost blade of my Sister.. by
Honoring the silver blade of my Mother.. so
I may Forge my own..
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Mousestalker
- Maid
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I'm actually ok with the idea of a female dominated clergy. With Lolth, the clergy are her enforcment arm, keeping everyone in line and marching to the afterlife in lock step. All very hierarchical, very organized and designed to create maximum despair.
Eilistraee very much has a free form clergy. While her priestesses get a great deal of respect, their authority is not absolute. And the goddess appears to all drow, not just her worshippers. So they get a religious leadre that isn't too challenging, being accustomed to female led worship from the beginning, and yet fundamentally different in the essentials. Finally the drow have hope. And that is a huge change.
But I'm a guy who grew up in a church that had an all male clergy. And the female drow I play are almost never clerics. The male drow I play are never clerics. So I suppose I really don't have a dog in this fight.
Eilistraee very much has a free form clergy. While her priestesses get a great deal of respect, their authority is not absolute. And the goddess appears to all drow, not just her worshippers. So they get a religious leadre that isn't too challenging, being accustomed to female led worship from the beginning, and yet fundamentally different in the essentials. Finally the drow have hope. And that is a huge change.
But I'm a guy who grew up in a church that had an all male clergy. And the female drow I play are almost never clerics. The male drow I play are never clerics. So I suppose I really don't have a dog in this fight.
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Shir'le E. Illios
- High Priestess
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[quote="Vendrin":23fboqba]Come to the surface and live in the lands above and be happy, but you can only be a cleric if you don't have anything between your legs? Like mother like daughter I suppose.[/quote:23fboqba]
I don’t think it’s quite like that. In fact, I’m fairly certain that the intention is that males [i:23fboqba]can[/i:23fboqba] be priests; they just have to experience the female side of things as well.
Maybe look at it like this (and I hope the example holds; bare with me
): can you be a Christian priest without being baptized? I would imagine that you cannot; yet you don’t have to be drowned in water every day of your priesthood either.
The way I understand it this… transformation is meant to gain insight and not as a permanent thing. I can imagine as Bhaern suggested that a (temporary) transformation the other way around (female to male) would serve to give priestesses more insight as well. Just that since Eilistraee is a feminine deity (a mother goddess), most of her followers are still far too ingrained with the preconceptions of Lolthian society [i:23fboqba]and[/i:23fboqba] there is this OOC view of them being fairly female-centric (I think many are disturbed by the image of men dancing naked) the requirement is for potential male priests to have experienced the female side of things, many finding themselves better priests the more they do.
Of course, I’m just trying to make sense of this and trying to fit it in my views of the goddess and the religion. But for all that it is and isn’t, I do feel it is an intriguing aspect to it that makes it a bit more different and distinct.
Oh, and it wouldn’t surprise me if there is no real gender-equality within Vhaeraunian worship either. Don’t forget, he is the god of “drow males” and the premier deity to stand against female-dominated Lolthian society. And I wonder if the “equality between males and females” isn’t more to say “males shouldn’t be less than females,” but not daring to be bold enough to elevate them above females since the thought would be too alien to most drow (and lose him those scant few female followers).
Remember, where deities have a gender there can be no equality in gender under just a single deity. Luckily the Faerûnian faith is a polytheistic one and Eilistraee seems to be the only deity who accepts the worship of other deities.
That’s what it seems to me at least.
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Shir'le
I don’t think it’s quite like that. In fact, I’m fairly certain that the intention is that males [i:23fboqba]can[/i:23fboqba] be priests; they just have to experience the female side of things as well.
Maybe look at it like this (and I hope the example holds; bare with me
): can you be a Christian priest without being baptized? I would imagine that you cannot; yet you don’t have to be drowned in water every day of your priesthood either.The way I understand it this… transformation is meant to gain insight and not as a permanent thing. I can imagine as Bhaern suggested that a (temporary) transformation the other way around (female to male) would serve to give priestesses more insight as well. Just that since Eilistraee is a feminine deity (a mother goddess), most of her followers are still far too ingrained with the preconceptions of Lolthian society [i:23fboqba]and[/i:23fboqba] there is this OOC view of them being fairly female-centric (I think many are disturbed by the image of men dancing naked) the requirement is for potential male priests to have experienced the female side of things, many finding themselves better priests the more they do.
Of course, I’m just trying to make sense of this and trying to fit it in my views of the goddess and the religion. But for all that it is and isn’t, I do feel it is an intriguing aspect to it that makes it a bit more different and distinct.
Oh, and it wouldn’t surprise me if there is no real gender-equality within Vhaeraunian worship either. Don’t forget, he is the god of “drow males” and the premier deity to stand against female-dominated Lolthian society. And I wonder if the “equality between males and females” isn’t more to say “males shouldn’t be less than females,” but not daring to be bold enough to elevate them above females since the thought would be too alien to most drow (and lose him those scant few female followers).
Remember, where deities have a gender there can be no equality in gender under just a single deity. Luckily the Faerûnian faith is a polytheistic one and Eilistraee seems to be the only deity who accepts the worship of other deities.
That’s what it seems to me at least.
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Shir'le
-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
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Bhaern Quel
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Hmm, side detail. It appears a male Caholic can become Pope (if elected) without ever having been a prist, though I expect the baptism is required to be Catholic.
Other then that yes it appears males are required to be baptized by wearing the female form for a short period of time to better understand the goddess they choose to serve as closely.
Other then that yes it appears males are required to be baptized by wearing the female form for a short period of time to better understand the goddess they choose to serve as closely.
I could roll with it, if every other female goddess out there required that of male priests, but they don't.
And I'm fine with the clergy being female dominated, I just don't see anywhere in Eilistraee's dogma it says you have to be a female to understand it, preach and follow it, and why a male should have to understand being a female to be a good priest of hers, when her faith is about bringing the drow back to goodness and the surface.
As for Vhaeraun, I'm biased, but I'd say his faith is for gender equality, because it does no good for him to promote males over females since that would hurt any chance of female recruitment and go for a purely skill/effectiveness/power based rulership.
And I'm fine with the clergy being female dominated, I just don't see anywhere in Eilistraee's dogma it says you have to be a female to understand it, preach and follow it, and why a male should have to understand being a female to be a good priest of hers, when her faith is about bringing the drow back to goodness and the surface.
As for Vhaeraun, I'm biased, but I'd say his faith is for gender equality, because it does no good for him to promote males over females since that would hurt any chance of female recruitment and go for a purely skill/effectiveness/power based rulership.
"What does God want? Does God want goodness or the choice of goodness? Is a man who chooses evil perhaps in some way better than a man who has good imposed upon him?"