Several qustions that i want an answer for!

[Delvaro]

Okay, first question: The 4th D&D Edition.

I dont know the deal about it, really. I've seen some people who seem to despise it and ignore its existance and other people who just say 'meh' and dont wish to talk about it. Sure, i know that they pretty much fucked up faerun with the spellplague and all that stuff...

But really, i dont know what the big deal is with that edition, okay, new edition so what? i want to know what exactly brought down the hate upon this edition Oh, and your opinion of it.

Next question: Gauntlegrym! Has anyone read it yet? I did, and i thought it was damn good.

Last question: Neverwinter! yeah, in 2011 there should be released the newest neverwinter game, which i think you probably already heard of. D&D Neverwinter! I'm not sure, but it has a lot to do with multiplayer but im not sure whether its an MMO or if it has single player, which is somewhat implied.

[Aylstra Illianniis]

Gauntlegrym: Haven't read it yet, as no book store within almost an hour's drive, and my local library works off of a consortium and can't get it for six months. Heard good things, though, though I am skeptical after the ending of the last book- Ghost King was SEVERELY disappointing for me, inspite of seeing Drizzt and Jarlaxle doing the "buddy" thing in that book. We'll have to see. I may get it for X-Mas. If not, I will probably order it on-line.

Neverwinter: Haven't heard much about it beyonds what's here on the Chosen news forums, so can't say much about it. I am still playing an old X-Box (not 360) and have not bought any new games since my 1st gen 360 got the red ring of death about a year after I bought it, and was promptly stolen shortly afterwards. (The joke's on them, I guess- they stole a dead console...)

*sigh* 4th ed: Where to start.... I played it ONCE when it first came out. Hated it. I tend to play unconventional PC's, and they simply did not work as I wanted in 4th ed rules. The conversion on my half-dragon Paladin/bard SUCKED. Was NOT the same PC AT ALL. Same for my drow bard. 4th ed doesn't even HAVE rules for his dervish PrC abilities, so that was out the window. I did not like the mechanics, and after the whole Spellplague debacle, I swore off all things 4th ed in game materials. I have read a couple of 4th ed novels (Lady Penitant books were transition, Ghost king ^ see above.) but so far they've been very disappointing. I may be through with FR as a setting if it continues. I will happily keep to the Pre-Spellplague/Godkilling/dropping chunks of other planets on Toril days, and only use or read those books that came before. WotC made a big mistake in my book. I've looked at Pathfinder, and find that I like a lot of what I have seen. May make the switch....

[Delvaro]

I see. Well, as much as i am sad and embarassed to admit, i never really played D&D.

Yeah, its sad really. I wanted but no matter how much i searched i never managed to find a playing group where i grew up, which was quite a large city so i was surprised. And not many even heard about D&D! and those who did just looked at me wierdly Most of my knowledge comes from the novels, which drew me into the whole thing in the first place.

Thats why i cant really know how bad is the 4th edition and what really changed. I see the rules that changed, but that doesnt really tell me much

About The Ghost king... it made me sad. i mean, getting rid of those characters! hot damn! never expected, nor wanted that.

Gauntlegrym is darker as well, but i liked it tons more than the ghost king. dunno, you need to read it

[Shir'le E. Illios]

Regarding D&D 4E, I must admit that I don't really know that many details about it. You could say that I'm firmly in the 'meh' camp.

The few things that I [i:2mlm1s5o]do[/i:2mlm1s5o] know however I don't really like that much. For example, they changed the alignment system to "Lawful Good", "Good", "Unaligned", "Evil" and "Chaotic Evil". Basically cutting out my two favorite alignments "Chaotic Good" and "Lawful Evil" (technically they've been merged into "Good" and "Evil" respectively I think). I don't like that the new system makes it sound as if "Lawful Good" is somehow better than 'just' "Good" (in the old systems all alignments were equal). Sure, I get that they wanted to simplify things and the old alignment system did have a lot of discussions and things that weren't clear (though I'm not convinced that the new one solved any of that). But it seems pretty much the worst way that they could've gone. Instead I'd probably change it to "Good", "Neutral" and/or "Unaligned" and "Evil". Heck, with that you could put some advanced rule in the DM guide or something adding the "Lawful"-"Chaotic" scale (which is where most of the discussions usually revolved around). Not only much simpler, but much more flexible [i:2mlm1s5o]and[/i:2mlm1s5o] enough to satisfy new players and old players alike.

Another problem with D&D 4E is that in general, as I understand, it caters more to the World of Warcraft players, giving it more MMO-like rules. The problem with that is that it's not likely to persuade any WoW players (who are, after all, already playing WoW precisely because they prefer that kind of game) and it tends to tick off any pen-and-paper players (who tend to prefer more pen-and-paper type rules over MMO type rules). An example of this is that they apparently took out all 'roleplaying' rules (i.e. rules for anything other than combat) to simplify things and with a "roleplayers will do that anyway regardless of rules and for everyone else it would just confuse matter" (my words on how I perceive their reasons). That tends to make roleplayers feel like they're just being ignored and that they're not important enough anymore.

But for me the main reason to dislike D&D 4E is because of the changes is caused WotC to make to the Forgotten Realms (though I find all their reasons a load of bullocks; they could change the underlying magic systems without killing off Mystra for example). Not that I think that them killing Eilistraee is directly related to any 4E rules, but they used 4E as an excuse to gut the setting and for that I can't forgive them or the rules they're blaming it on.


As for Gauntlegrym, no I haven't read it and I likely never will. Because of what WotC did to the Forgotten Realms I have no intention whatsoever to ever give them so much as a dime anymore. In effect, though I doubt it'll make a difference, I'm boycotting every and all WotC products. Without Eilistraee the Forgotten Realms don't have anything to offer to me anymore, so there's no point in spending any money on it.


As far as Cryptic's Neverwinter goes, yes I'm aware of it. I don't have much of any hopes for it (I've played both Champions Online and Star Trek Online and they're both rather poor MMOs in my opinion). There is a tiny, tiny chance that I might break my boycott of WotC products for this (and yes, I see computer games as that as well; I didn't buy the second Neverwinter Nights 2 expansion because of my boycott and same with that other adventure pack thingy). It'll have to be pretty damn good for that though. Somewhere in the back of my mind I've got this idea to make some adventure in it that brings Eilistraee back, but obviously you have to be able to play a drow in that game first. And I'm definitely not going to pay for anything in it without first having played it (which I might if they do go some free-to-play route as seems to be suggested).


Overall I carry a [i:2mlm1s5o]lot[/i:2mlm1s5o] of dislike for WotC's recent actions. My interest has always been Eilistraee. WotC made it clear that Eilistraee isn't part of their products anymore, so I have no interest in their products anymore. I guess that about sums up my answer for all three.


Love -x-x-x-

Shir'le

[Delvaro]

Ahhh, i see. The simplified the rules to such absurd degree that you dont have as much control you had over your character as you had in 3.5... at least thats what i heard from a friend of mine. I get it, changing the rules to resemble MMO, when its NOT an MMO...really? when i say it like that it sounds so dumb.

Regarding Eilistraee...I am well aware of what you mean. You wont believe how furious i was about it! Considering that i was writing a story about drows and Eilistraee, and then they kill her off... it sort of completely destroyed my mood. Havent written any FR related stories in a years i think, maybe even more. Yeah, im a writer and i've had this ambition of one day to write forgotten realms stories, but it sort of faded away lately, not that i still dont want it, i just dont want it as badly as before. and anyway, im writing for almost 2 years, and its not enough to actualy write something good...might post something ehre though

As for Gauntlegrym? I understand your boycot and everything but i didnt get the book because of WotC. I got it because of Drizzt. I bought and read every single book since the first book, Homeland. The Drizzt books have become almost a part of me, and i feel i will be betraying myself if i wont get them and read on. Regardless of how much WotC further fucks up Faerun, with all the spellplague and dying gods (which is rather sad, considering they couldve used hundreds of other methods to change things) i will still read the Drizzt books, because i love the character, not because of some obligation to WotC.

The newest game? I wont judge till i play, though i will scream in outrage and destroy something in my fury if i will have to pay for it monthly. Besides, we dont know what the game will have, if you could play as drow or not, since they basically just hinted on the basic things, and as far as i know, drow are not basic, sort of. we have full year to wait until it is released, and they have a year to add all the stuf they hadnt mentioned yet. I hope the did tell the truth, stating that they are planning to make an entirely different game than Champions and STO.

Still, i'd like to know the general opinion about 4ed from a novel's POV. As in, what do you think of the changes in the world, not the game mechanics and rules. Like what they added, removed and general stuff like that.

[Aylstra Illianniis]

Well, I just read the sample chapter of Gauntlegrym on the WotC site last night (it's chapter one) And I kind of like what I've seen so far. Might actually order it on-line now. "Me...king..." Poor confused Pwent....

Hmm, 4th ed from novel standpoint. So far the only book I've liked from the 4th ed and on time-period is Elminster Must Die. I'm a big fan of Ed to begin with, and although I can't say that I like what was done to Toril overall, I did at least enjoy that yarn. Simbul going jibbering insane was no real surprise to me, as I've always thought of her as being a bit nuts to begin with. But in a GOOD way.... But El's going a bit darker and becoming more ruthless in his attempts to cure her- even to the point of killing Cormyr War Wizards by the dozen- made it clear how desperate the situation is all over Faerun. What little I read of Gauntlegrym showed that even thirty years later, people are still feeling the effects of the tragedies that took place. So, although I don't like the "reboot", I have come to terms with at least some of it, and if they DO decide to bring back some of the "dead" gods (Mystra and Eilistraee, in particular) I might begin to enjoy the setting again.

I agree that it felt too much like an MMO, and Delvaro, your assessment that you no longer have as much control over your PC is very accurate. Like you, drow and Eilistraee are one of the things that drew me to the setting, along with Drizzt, of course, and in my homebrew world, She is still very much alive and kicking- but then again, I do not run, play, or write in Faerun, but rahter a game-world of my own design. Mostly because most of my D&D playing friends did not read any FR books, or play in the setting, so I had no game group to play in Faerun with.

That said, I'd love to see your story, and I would like to encourage you to keep writing it in spite of WotC's killing her off. There is no reason why you can't simply give the world and locations in it other names, and make it completely your own. Or, perhaps even better, you could use it as a way to bring her back! It's something to think about. I've been working on a book or three of my own- all set in my homebrew world- that tells the life of my drow bard. (You'll be meeting him shortly over in the "Come Little Children" thread...) Feel free to post it here, as I'm sure many of us would happily read it!

[Delvaro]

Oh, i will post it here, and gladly so. But ill have to rewrite it first, because in my opinion, the beggining was complete crap, now that i reread it. It was written nearly more than a year ago, and when i compare my writing skills back then to now, i just feel obliged to rewrite it to make it better. And modified, though im still not sure whether i should write it as a pre-spellplague or post-spellplague.

The whole setting of my story are a group of Islands around three weeks of sailing west of waterdeep. They are pretty large, but nothing close to continent size.

My main dillema about the whole thing, regarding the 3.5 and 4th edition is this: there is only one thing that i completely and delightfully acceptm without any second thoughts: The Dragonborn!

I dont know, i'm really curious about them and as a race they seem very interesting to use, and so is their culture and other things related to them, like their hatered of dragons and deep sense of honor (Plus, they make GREAT paladins). Now, the whole dillema is this: I cant use them if i stay in 3.5, but if i do use them, i lose other stuff and have to use the spellplague and accept the deaths of several gods. See my problem here?

[Aylstra Illianniis]

Actually, you can use them in 3.5 without fear, as they were first presented in the 3.5 book Races of the Dragon. Before that book, there were only half-dragons in 2nd ed (which I feel are a MUCH better draconic race). The biggest problem I have with Dragonborn is that they really don't serve much purpose when compared to the earlier half-dragons, who have mixed feeling about dragons depending on their dragon parent's type, and their upbringing. Some revere and respect their draconic ancestors, others hate them with a passion, and others simply do not care, or just reject that part of their heritage altogether. Makes for a much more interesting race, IMO. Many half-dragons (mostly metallics) do indeed make great Paladins, or sorcerers as well. (I have one of each- they're twins.)

I'd suggest the story should be pre-Spellplague, since technically, her death came just a few years before it happened. Or alternately, if you go post- you could have her remaining followers attempting to find a way to bring her back, but either way is perfectly legit.

[Delvaro]

Well, as far as my knowledge goes, some Dragonborn still revere dragons as their masters, though that is looked down upon. They were enslaved for eon by their dragon overlords so they dont really like them and a lot of dragonborn that are now in faerun dont really care, since the dragons of faerun are not really connected to the ones in abeir. Some though, despise them and generally dragonborn who hunt dragons are revered as heroes.

Also, quite a lot of dragonborn are faithless, since as far as i know the gods are not that popular on abeir.

Really, as i see it, Dragonborn are just...modified half-dragons and there isnt much original things in them, other than that they dont come from dragons and they themselves have no idea how they were created.

Well, i dont really know much about half-dragons, and i think i should check them out.

Also, my story is not eilistraee centered (yet, or if it will ever be) it has more to do with ambitious drow and a war or two

[Rhei Lor'akris]

A short answer (not directed to anyone on this forum) from me is this.

The rules system for the most part sucks. If you want to play WoW, fricken play [b:r6jcfg3v]WoW[/b:r6jcfg3v]. If you want to play D&D, fricken play [b:r6jcfg3v]D&D[/b:r6jcfg3v].

The fact that WotC made such a horrendous system change and hacked apart a respectable and well loved fantasy setting to make it more [i:r6jcfg3v]'edgy'[/i:r6jcfg3v] has lead me to drop anything having to do with their new product lineup. I've since turned to Pathfinder (3.75e) and other third party publishers and groups who still adhere to a more sound philosophy that maintains"if its good, don't change it".

I liked the Forgotten Realms the way it was. 3e and the 3.5e update may have had problems but certainly those issues were not enough to warrant a totally new system change. Pathfinder did well at addressing a lot of those issues. *shrugs* it just really boils down to politics. It must have been the same for those who liked the previous editions of 1e and 2e more, but I can't say the same as them as I only really got into playing D&D right at the beginning of 3e. I'm uncertain as to how much of the Forgotten Realms have altered between previous edition changes.

Pardon my steam, just got out of a hard exam 2 hours ago.

[Aylstra Illianniis]

Well, as someone who's been around since 2nd ed, the previous changes to the setting were always minimal, at most. a few new nations rose, a couple fell, some gods got kicked out of their homes and had to earn their way back, bu in the end, everything was pretty much the same. 4th ed changed ALL of that. This may be why I dislike it so much- they took out MOST of what I loved, changed a lot more, and then gave a kiss-off to everyone who complained. Sales have since gone down, or so I've heard. Not surprising. They massacred their flagship setting, and then reaped the *ahem* rewards. Thank you, corporate America....

[Alak Xiltyn]

I've played several 4th ed games, a number of my friends did not get into role playing until 4th ed came out and for them Pathfinder/old 3.5 is as horribly convoluted and arcane as THAC0 was to my friends who joined with 3rd ed, if not worse. I've found that 4th ed is VERY useful for one off campaigns because of just how easily it is to make a character; which brings me to my first genuine gripe with the system: Cookie cutter characters.

Every character you play in every class plays exactly the same way, battle starts, sling around spells that are called things other than spells depending on your class. A wizard feels no different than a Paladin or Rogue or Cleric, the abilities you use have different effects but they've taken what used to be the realm of wizards and focused the entire system on it to the expense of everything else.

When it's all said and done my biggest beef with 4th ed is simple: it feels NOTHING like what I've come to expect from D&D over the years. As someone who came in on the tail end of the aD&D days via Baldur's Gate (and was thoroughly confused when my first actual D&D game was 3.0) I can say that with a greater level of authority than most of my gaming group.

The system itself is perfectly fine and attracts a different sort of crowd than the previous systems did, I just think they made a HUGE mistake by turning their backs on the traditional fanbase. What they should have done was released an update of 3.5 as a revived aD&D and made the current 4th ed rules a basic edition. I doubt anyone would have been put off by that.

[Delvaro]

Yeah, i understood that. One of the things that i found awesome in D&D 3.5 is the amount of control you had over your character, having the ability to make it unique among others of the same race and class.

From what i see, such thing is nonexistant in 4ed

[Aylstra Illianniis]

That is largely because they have mostly taken the "role" out of role-playing, and replaced it with "roll"-playing. As in dice rolling. It is really just a combat system now, with little if anything to do with role-playing in the traditional sense. It's a combat game now. If I wanted that, I'd play Warhammer...

The problem, as I see it, stems from their desire to hook all the WoW'ers, and that they totally ignored their main fan-base in the process. I equate it to a lot of what Marvel has done in recent years. They took their most beloved character- Spidey- and used a cheap gimmick (a "deal with the devil" to save his aunt) as a means (read- excuse) to "un-marry" him after twenty years of one of the best relationships in their entire line. Now he's a thirty-something unemployed single loser, who can't keep a job, can't GET a girl, and has to mooch off friends and family to survive and keep himself in webbing. All while he is supposedly part of the Avengers- a PAID government-sponsored group of heroes!!

[Delvaro]

Oh, dont remind me of spidey, please. I just saw that turn into something sooo awful and it was just horrible to watch and see several plot holes about the size of a continent (like the one you mentioned regarding the avengers).

WotC pulled one on us. Thats what i can say, and they failed on a such epic scale that it cannot be even spelled correctly, it does not deserve such a thing. So regarding their failure, it is now regarded as PHALE. It was simply stupid when you think about it. The WoW'ers have WOW. They enjoy it and play it for several years now and i doubt they have reason to suddenly switch their chosen game, while WotC had practically everything to lose, ranging from fans and most importantly to them: MONEY. They risked, and fell because a lot of people LOATHED 4ed and simply boycotted their products and all the new players decided that WoW was better, or something.

Simple conclusion: Until paid for sins: WotC = PHALE.