Choose your villain!- For Fun!
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Rooky
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[quote="Vendrin":axtfxzq1][quote="Argoth":axtfxzq1]I think we already had a discussion on the necessity of the changedance and why does it work one way. My point of view is that becouse Eilistraee is still a female drow deity, and the sociaty from which she takes (through her servants) priestesses is matriarchal... it all ads up in my opinion.[/quote:axtfxzq1]
Oh, I agree it all adds up and make sense, but that doesn't mean I approve of it. Or ever will.
[quote:axtfxzq1]It's just like with Christianity when it was first introduced to the northern tribes. Jesus was to them presented as a chieftain, a lord, a ringgiver, so that they could understand the fundamental law, the He is the supreme ruler. There was no other way to make Christianity to them attractive. Although the conversion from Lolthianism to Eilistraee is much more difficult, (it involves a change from evil to good in D&D terms, which so to say are a bit stiff) some elements MUST remain the same, for the new to somehow resemble the old. With time those new worshippers come to understand that there actually is equality between genders in the Eilistraee church. It just works in different spheres. [/quote:axtfxzq1]
I don't see why they have to remain the same. Why is big bigotry not alright(No it's not alright to keep slaves and kill people for pleasure), but small bigotry(oh, but yes, females are still superior to males) is alright? Yes explanations have been given by Shir'le and others, but at most those are excuses for something that isn't right, it's just that it needs to be done to placate the female converts who are too used to Lolth's dogma.
I just don't see why it's such a big deal to stop seeing men as inferior when they've already had to change their world view to become eilistraeens in the first place. Now if Eilistraee were just to come out and say then females were superior, that's fine. Then it's part of her dogma, I wouldn't be pleased with it, but I'd live with it. But she's still claiming to be a faith that is gender neutral but it obviously isn't.
((and for those that want to look to at the real world, this is not the real world we are talking about))
[quote:axtfxzq1]A male may be a priest of the Dark Maiden, but he must perform the changedance. To me it's not just a swich of bodies (like Edwin used to do in BG 2) but a change that runs deep in the psyche. And the more it lasts, the deeper it goes.[/quote:axtfxzq1]
Even worse. So not only do you have to change your body to be accepted you have to change your very psyche to be accepted? So much for free choice and will.
[quote:axtfxzq1] It is necessery for men to "feel" more as the goddess they serve is a woman and a mother (not literally) to her followers. Hence the priests (as a more direct connection to the goddess) must be more parent-like. And caring. &ct. [/quote:axtfxzq1]
So why doesn't Sune require it? Or Selune? Or Sharess? Or Angharradh the elven goddess of fertility, birth?
And for that matter, why does not a single one of the male deities require something like it?
Why can't a man be parent-like? Is there something wrong with Fatherhood?
IF there was another diety of the good drow, a male, perhaps a consort or brother of Eilistraee, then she could focus on females and let males focus on said consort/brother. That is what pantheons are there for, to unite slightly different beliefs under the same over arching goal. However Eilistraee is the ONLY diety of ALL good drow, not just the females. It isn't right to believe that men somehow need to experience life as a female to serve her as a cleric. AND if that is not the reason she requires the changedance, instead it is to placate the extreme factions of her faith that still hold on to matriarchal tendencies, that is even worse, because she is acquesing to the wrongful whims of her followers to keep them, and in a realm where gods have changed to suit their followers, what is currently done to placate them, may mark the change in her self until she believes as they do.[/quote:axtfxzq1]
You do realize that your questions are raising eavenmore questions instead of answers?
Go to the source and ask Ed....don't ask us!
Oh, I agree it all adds up and make sense, but that doesn't mean I approve of it. Or ever will.
[quote:axtfxzq1]It's just like with Christianity when it was first introduced to the northern tribes. Jesus was to them presented as a chieftain, a lord, a ringgiver, so that they could understand the fundamental law, the He is the supreme ruler. There was no other way to make Christianity to them attractive. Although the conversion from Lolthianism to Eilistraee is much more difficult, (it involves a change from evil to good in D&D terms, which so to say are a bit stiff) some elements MUST remain the same, for the new to somehow resemble the old. With time those new worshippers come to understand that there actually is equality between genders in the Eilistraee church. It just works in different spheres. [/quote:axtfxzq1]
I don't see why they have to remain the same. Why is big bigotry not alright(No it's not alright to keep slaves and kill people for pleasure), but small bigotry(oh, but yes, females are still superior to males) is alright? Yes explanations have been given by Shir'le and others, but at most those are excuses for something that isn't right, it's just that it needs to be done to placate the female converts who are too used to Lolth's dogma.
I just don't see why it's such a big deal to stop seeing men as inferior when they've already had to change their world view to become eilistraeens in the first place. Now if Eilistraee were just to come out and say then females were superior, that's fine. Then it's part of her dogma, I wouldn't be pleased with it, but I'd live with it. But she's still claiming to be a faith that is gender neutral but it obviously isn't.
((and for those that want to look to at the real world, this is not the real world we are talking about))
[quote:axtfxzq1]A male may be a priest of the Dark Maiden, but he must perform the changedance. To me it's not just a swich of bodies (like Edwin used to do in BG 2) but a change that runs deep in the psyche. And the more it lasts, the deeper it goes.[/quote:axtfxzq1]
Even worse. So not only do you have to change your body to be accepted you have to change your very psyche to be accepted? So much for free choice and will.
[quote:axtfxzq1] It is necessery for men to "feel" more as the goddess they serve is a woman and a mother (not literally) to her followers. Hence the priests (as a more direct connection to the goddess) must be more parent-like. And caring. &ct. [/quote:axtfxzq1]
So why doesn't Sune require it? Or Selune? Or Sharess? Or Angharradh the elven goddess of fertility, birth?
And for that matter, why does not a single one of the male deities require something like it?
Why can't a man be parent-like? Is there something wrong with Fatherhood?
IF there was another diety of the good drow, a male, perhaps a consort or brother of Eilistraee, then she could focus on females and let males focus on said consort/brother. That is what pantheons are there for, to unite slightly different beliefs under the same over arching goal. However Eilistraee is the ONLY diety of ALL good drow, not just the females. It isn't right to believe that men somehow need to experience life as a female to serve her as a cleric. AND if that is not the reason she requires the changedance, instead it is to placate the extreme factions of her faith that still hold on to matriarchal tendencies, that is even worse, because she is acquesing to the wrongful whims of her followers to keep them, and in a realm where gods have changed to suit their followers, what is currently done to placate them, may mark the change in her self until she believes as they do.[/quote:axtfxzq1]
You do realize that your questions are raising eavenmore questions instead of answers?
Go to the source and ask Ed....don't ask us!
:3
Because I fear that my relentless badgering and logic would result in one of two things
1. His utter dismissal and ignoring me completely, thus shattering my very large and impressively potent ego.
2. We argue and he can not stand against my relentless logic and my very large and impressively potent ego, thus destroying his mind in a forum war filled with flames and carnage equal to that of the Blood War.
1. His utter dismissal and ignoring me completely, thus shattering my very large and impressively potent ego.
2. We argue and he can not stand against my relentless logic and my very large and impressively potent ego, thus destroying his mind in a forum war filled with flames and carnage equal to that of the Blood War.
"What does God want? Does God want goodness or the choice of goodness? Is a man who chooses evil perhaps in some way better than a man who has good imposed upon him?"
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Unen_Stealthfoot
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[color=darkred:1nh16va2]Amazing. Everyonge just sort of ignored the High Priestess... permission to smite? 
I say, if not Jarlaxle, then Hallistra. Talk about a betrayer of trust. She becomes eilistraeen for her own ends, then, when it suits her, becomes lolthian? An excellent example of a stereotypical drow. And about that "true conversion" to Eilistraee, well, just a drow who (temporarily) let her emotions and a whim get the better of her.[/color:1nh16va2]
I say, if not Jarlaxle, then Hallistra. Talk about a betrayer of trust. She becomes eilistraeen for her own ends, then, when it suits her, becomes lolthian? An excellent example of a stereotypical drow. And about that "true conversion" to Eilistraee, well, just a drow who (temporarily) let her emotions and a whim get the better of her.[/color:1nh16va2]
Life before death
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Narsia Ny'Dhun
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damnit! she doesn't even stay a follower of Eilistraee? Pfft...well, damn, I guess my liking of her was misplaced >_<
*hasn't finished the series yet*
*hasn't finished the series yet*
"Courage lies not in the lack of fear...but in doing something you are afraid to."
Check out the progress on my book at http://kaavelbaelithar.deviantart.com/
Check out the progress on my book at http://kaavelbaelithar.deviantart.com/
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DarkSongKnight
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[quote:1uucdd69]she doesn't even stay a follower of Eilistraee? Pfft...well, damn, I guess my liking of her was misplaced[/quote:1uucdd69]
Yeah, unfortunately, Halisstra isn't/wasn't exactly loyal. Her actions are based very much on the whim of the moment. Her conversion may have been true enough, but she lacked the loyalty and faith to stick it out when things got tough.
Yet another reason why I'm hoping that Halisstra will be the Melarn who betrays, and not Q'arlynd (sp?). Q'arlynd has already tried grasping Eilistraee's holy symbol and asking her to rid his body of poision once he teleported to the Promenade after Eilistraee killed (supposedly) Vhaeraun. I'm hoping he may be the "pathway" or first "example" of a male being inducted into the clergy as a priest.
As for the changedance discussion, I started a thread in the Theological debate section. Feel free.
[url:1uucdd69]viewtopic.php?t=735[/url:1uucdd69]
Yeah, unfortunately, Halisstra isn't/wasn't exactly loyal. Her actions are based very much on the whim of the moment. Her conversion may have been true enough, but she lacked the loyalty and faith to stick it out when things got tough.
Yet another reason why I'm hoping that Halisstra will be the Melarn who betrays, and not Q'arlynd (sp?). Q'arlynd has already tried grasping Eilistraee's holy symbol and asking her to rid his body of poision once he teleported to the Promenade after Eilistraee killed (supposedly) Vhaeraun. I'm hoping he may be the "pathway" or first "example" of a male being inducted into the clergy as a priest.
As for the changedance discussion, I started a thread in the Theological debate section. Feel free.
[url:1uucdd69]viewtopic.php?t=735[/url:1uucdd69]
*sigh* Oh, well. She loses major points with me, then, heh. I think I give up on choosing favorite characters in this series, because they invariably either betray the group and die, or get completely hosed and die...or do something cool, then betray that. 
"Courage lies not in the lack of fear...but in doing something you are afraid to."
Check out the progress on my book at http://kaavelbaelithar.deviantart.com/
Check out the progress on my book at http://kaavelbaelithar.deviantart.com/
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Narsia Ny'Dhun
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Unen_Stealthfoot
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Narsia Ny'Dhun
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Narsia Ny'Dhun
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[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":x0061qtg]Grahf from Xenogears, and also Krelian. And let us not forget Id, who was evil just because he was evil. That's the best kind of villain.[/quote:x0061qtg]
Hardly, there can be no humanization of such a character, no empathy to strike up with.
While the "coolest" villains may indeed be the beings of pure evil who are evil for the sake of evil, the most remembered are the ones who are human that you can understand why they are doing something, and can sympathize for, which is why I believe Darth Vader is still such an iconic figure, because in part, despite all he had done, he was still human and because of that became what he was.
In turning again to Irenicus, you could never get the powerful emotional response you got from him to come from a being of pure evil.
Irenicus:
I don't remember your love Elliseme. I've tried to recreate it. To spark it anew in my memory. But it is gone, a hollow dead thing.
For years I clung to the memory, then the memory of the memory and then nothing! The Seldarine took that from me to!
Hardly, there can be no humanization of such a character, no empathy to strike up with.
While the "coolest" villains may indeed be the beings of pure evil who are evil for the sake of evil, the most remembered are the ones who are human that you can understand why they are doing something, and can sympathize for, which is why I believe Darth Vader is still such an iconic figure, because in part, despite all he had done, he was still human and because of that became what he was.
In turning again to Irenicus, you could never get the powerful emotional response you got from him to come from a being of pure evil.
Irenicus:
I don't remember your love Elliseme. I've tried to recreate it. To spark it anew in my memory. But it is gone, a hollow dead thing.
For years I clung to the memory, then the memory of the memory and then nothing! The Seldarine took that from me to!
"What does God want? Does God want goodness or the choice of goodness? Is a man who chooses evil perhaps in some way better than a man who has good imposed upon him?"
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Unen_Stealthfoot
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