Sex, Marriage and Children

Since the Chosen of Eilistraee is a religious oriented player group, naturally there is a place to have theological discussions. That is in-game religions; please leave real-world religion out of it. Debate the fine points of a certain dogma, how a church can enforce worship while staying true to its tenets or simply why one deity is better than another one is. All are free to talk about it here.

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Serath En'Sendaran
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Post by Serath En'Sendaran »

Oh, come now... there has to be male followers at some of the revels.
"Plynn ussta che, plynn ussta thac'zil,
plynn uns'aa vel'klar Usstan shlubnaut fre'sla,
Flamgra l'thac'zil lu'caghresst l'qu'mados,
dos shlubnaut plynn l'anulo dal uns'aa."
Bhaern Quel
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Post by Bhaern Quel »

Oh clearly the dynamics are in place that Eilistraee Drow can over time out number Lolth Drow because of the way children are raised if one just looks at the cultural differences. Just like some Sages speculate that there are more Drow then the rest of the fair elves combined.

While the number varies somewhat it is not unreasonable to infir about 50 of Lolth Drow live to adulthood, where most Eilistraee Drow children will reach adulthood.

Other factors though come into play, Lolth directs the distruction of any Eilistraee community when they are discovered and it is clearly reported that many Elistraee communities survive for long period of time.

There is another dynamic that can effect Eilistraee communities, being more race acepting there can be a resulting birth of many half-Drow (whom do not live nearly as long as a pure Elf). There also can be a waekness that builds in Eilistraee communities, the culling process is different. Lolth kills off the weak before they can breed, Eilistraee does not. It might not be that much of a factor as clearly there will be tests for skills and talents. The best will become Clerics, Fighters, Wizards, etc. Those with lower stats and skills becoming Commonors, Experts, etc. In effect having a population to do the types of work that a Lolthian society uses slaves for. In such a liberal society the strong will be killed in battle defending the weaker ones, that in time could result in not enough strong lines being born to defend while the protected weaker ones live longer and have more children.

Of course odds are low that canon will ever have the good Drow outnumber the evil Drow IAE. However there can be in game reasons that Eilistraee communities or Houses will be weaker then a Lolth community/ House having the same number of persons.
Last edited by Bhaern Quel on Wed May 24, 2006 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yasraena D'issan An'ar
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Post by Yasraena D'issan An'ar »

Well, then get out there and convert more guys! Or do what Raena did...marry a moon elf....have drow babies.....LOL
Cha'kohk dosst qee'lak jhal zhah ap'za chiana :evillol:
Bhaern Quel
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Post by Bhaern Quel »

[quote="Jubilee":1p0rhssm]The trouble is, unless you invent them a sperm producing strapon, most of the wild ritual orgies are female exclusive, forestalling any expansion of the drow stripper bloodline ..[/quote:1p0rhssm]

Err most of the Eilistraee Priestesses do have male consorts. As far as it goes, Ed appears to indicate that some enoy being Exotic dancers that can easily get a date. Heck I would not be surprised that some might from time to time work as "coin girls*. There are a lot of places to get spream from even if going outside of the community.

Further and 2nd generation community would have the normal distribution of births (about 50-50) so een if a community started with 10 clerics, the second genration would contain about 50 females and 50 males.
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Post by Serath En'Sendaran »

[quote="Bhaern Quel":2ig5uthu]
As far as it goes, Ed appears to indicate that some enoy being Exotic dancers that can easily get a date. Heck I would not be surprised that some might from time to time work as "coin girls*. [/quote:2ig5uthu]
Hmm... to be honest, I had never thought of that concept before. I may have to impliment that into one of my games that I've been running.
An area near an Eilistraeen settlement may have an Eili bard "coin girl" at one of the festhalls. I mean, honestly, from reading some of the books and materials, they're not shy, and modesty seems to be a "quaint" concept.
Would Priestesses of Eilistraee actually use sex as a conversion tool? (I was sooo tempted to say missionary tool, but I was afraid everyone would get the wrong idea.)
Also, the fact that there more females than males, does that automatically imply that every Eilistraee priestess is "switch-hitting"? Or would you still find some purely heterosexual clergy? Then that goes into "Is sexuality determined by inherited or enviromental factors?" Maybe that's a little too deep?
"Plynn ussta che, plynn ussta thac'zil,
plynn uns'aa vel'klar Usstan shlubnaut fre'sla,
Flamgra l'thac'zil lu'caghresst l'qu'mados,
dos shlubnaut plynn l'anulo dal uns'aa."
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Post by Bhaern Quel »

[quote="Serath En'Sendaran":ew0vydht][quote="Bhaern Quel":ew0vydht]
As far as it goes, Ed appears to indicate that some enoy being Exotic dancers that can easily get a date. Heck I would not be surprised that some might from time to time work as "coin girls*. [/quote:ew0vydht]
Hmm... to be honest, I had never thought of that concept before. I may have to impliment that into one of my games that I've been running.
An area near an Eilistraeen settlement may have an Eili bard "coin girl" at one of the festhalls. I mean, honestly, from reading some of the books and materials, they're not shy, and modesty seems to be a "quaint" concept.
Would Priestesses of Eilistraee actually use sex as a conversion tool? (I was sooo tempted to say missionary tool, but I was afraid everyone would get the wrong idea.)
Also, the fact that there more females than males, does that automatically imply that every Eilistraee priestess is "switch-hitting"? Or would you still find some purely heterosexual clergy? Then that goes into "Is sexuality determined by inherited or enviromental factors?" Maybe that's a little too deep?[/quote:ew0vydht]

Well Ed has spoke some of his vision of FR and Sexuality, a far more permissive society then what occurs on Earth. Homosexuality is not a crime, just something some people do.

As for Eilistraee followers, Elistraee in many ways a mother goddesses, most of her followers would be hetero or bi-sexual, because being homosexual does not generate children. Ed does of course complain about what he could not get pass the TSR/WotC censors but bits leak out in what was printed. Just imagine what he offered that got cut and they threw him a bone on the lessor content.

From all I know I do not see Eilstraee societies being based of a homosexual bias at all, though of course they would be acepted within the community.

I do not think Priestesses would use sex as a conversion tool as such, howeve they would likely mention that free sex (follow child, type of concept) indeed was part of life joining a community even if one did not convert so that perhaps the message can be offered more then once.
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Post by Serath En'Sendaran »

It would be interesting to see what Ed had intended that TSR/WotC (One must remember that also now means Hasbro) censored. I mean, honestly... Sharess, goddess of cats, hedonism, and... festhalls? What's a festhall anyways? :? :lol: I'm thinking a wee bit of editing.
I agree I don't believe homosexuality would be an aspect. I was more thinking of bi-sexuality when I was trying to explain it. It's interesting to discuss how gender balance would affect a goddess that includes lovers in her portfolio. I never really thought of Eilistraee as a "mother-goddess" considering how many of them there are in Faerun, but her association with the moon would kind of automatically imply that, wouldn't it?

:smirk: Now I'm getting ponderous about another topic, I think I may have to start a different thread about deific relationships.
"Plynn ussta che, plynn ussta thac'zil,
plynn uns'aa vel'klar Usstan shlubnaut fre'sla,
Flamgra l'thac'zil lu'caghresst l'qu'mados,
dos shlubnaut plynn l'anulo dal uns'aa."
Bhaern Quel
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Post by Bhaern Quel »

[quote="Yasraena D'issan An'ar":14rk0vjt]Well, then get out there and convert more guys! Or do what Raena did...marry a moon elf....have drow babies.....LOL[/quote:14rk0vjt]

There is this of course, though in the past genectics indicated a strong chance of having a Drow Child, and occasional fair elf child, and even rarer a mixed blood child. Skin brown, eyes blue, type of thing. 3.X I think removed this option though.

Oh do not let the spider kisser distract you too much, part of her job appears to be to run down Eilistraee followers. *Grin*
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Shir'le E. Illios
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Post by Shir'le E. Illios »

[quote="Jubilee":2q4vivrr]most of the wild ritual orgies are female exclusive[/quote:2q4vivrr]
I'm not sure if that's true. As 2[sup:2q4vivrr]nd[/sup:2q4vivrr] ed. states:

[quote:2q4vivrr]The customary worship to the Dark Maiden is a hunt, followed by a feast and dancing, and a Circle of Song, in which the worshipers sit and dance by turns in a circle, each one in succession leading a song. If possible, this is done out of doors, in a wooded area, on a moonlit night.[/quote:2q4vivrr]
It mentioning "worshippers" instead of "priestesses" (which it does in other locations) seems to indicate to me that it's an "open to everyone" kind of thing. There are some religious rituals which are generally described as female-only, but that's probably more because Eilistraeens in general have this female-only stereotype going.


For the rest it seems that Eilistraeens would indeed be more prolific (and have a lower self-induced mortality rate). So assuming they actually do find a sense of peace on the surface it is possible that they would outnumber the Lolthian drow.

But the number of Eilistraeen drow is so astronomically small compared to the Lolthian drow that it would take a very [i:2q4vivrr]long[/i:2q4vivrr] time for that to happen. I think the chance is higher that most of the Lolthians convert to Eilistraee before that happens. ;)


Beyond that, just enjoy life, freedom and love and don't worry about having to out-breed Lolthian drow or anything. :p


Love -x-x-x-

Shir'le
F'sarn natha tithaur wun l'su'aco.

-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
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Serath En'Sendaran
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Post by Serath En'Sendaran »

Now there would be an interesting campaign setting to run a game through... Faerun where the Eilies out number the Lolthians. The Lolthians reduced to a few splinter cults, and Lolth herself a lesser diety, her power weakened. Hmm.....
"Plynn ussta che, plynn ussta thac'zil,
plynn uns'aa vel'klar Usstan shlubnaut fre'sla,
Flamgra l'thac'zil lu'caghresst l'qu'mados,
dos shlubnaut plynn l'anulo dal uns'aa."
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Post by Bhaern Quel »

[quote:2dg8pm0p]most of the wild ritual orgies are female exclusive[/quote:2dg8pm0p]

I missed this before, the rituals are.

Sword Dance
Circle of Song
High Hunt
Last Dance
Run

The High Hunt clearly is not female only, Clerics need to be naked and armed with one sword, followers can have any weapon and can wear anything including full armor and no gender restriction is indicated.

The rest of these events will be female only, only if only females can become Clerics. A reoccuring debate that comes up being did 3.X change that rule bu omission.

Also Circle of Song "in which the worshipers sit and dance by turns in a circle, each one in succession leading a song." is worshippers, not Clergy. Thus clearly males certainly can take part in this one as well.
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Post by Serath En'Sendaran »

I missed this before, the rituals are.

Sword Dance
Circle of Song
High Hunt
Last Dance
Run

The High Hunt clearly is not female only, Clerics need to be naked and armed with one sword, followers can have any weapon and can wear anything including full armor and no gender restriction is indicated.

The rest of these events will be female only, only if only females can become Clerics. A reoccuring debate that comes up being did 3.X change that rule bu omission.[/quote]

In keeping with the spirit of the Realms, I would rule that only females can become priestess of Eilistraee, which means straight Cleric. More particularly, Sword Dancers, Silver Knights, and any other related PrC can only be female. Also, only females could become Darksong Knights (Champions of Valor, a must for anyone wanting to play an Eilistraeen).

A devoted follower of the Dark Maiden, I believe may be able to take a level or two of cleric, favored soul, druid or the like, regardless of gender. That being said, that person would have no real authority among the faithful. (If using Power of Faerun, I would equate this with a penalty for the Leadership score, and other rulership rules described by dear Mr. Greenwood and friends.)

A good part of it depends on the person running the game, what they are willing to run, and how much they want to keep with the spirit of things. The heavens know I've bent more than my few share of patheons issues in my day (A certian minotaur cleric of the Selderine comes to mind), but the important thing is to understand, in such a case as a male cleric of the Dancing Maiden... why would there be this deviation? In the end Eilistraee may be good... but she is also Chaotic. ;)
"Plynn ussta che, plynn ussta thac'zil,
plynn uns'aa vel'klar Usstan shlubnaut fre'sla,
Flamgra l'thac'zil lu'caghresst l'qu'mados,
dos shlubnaut plynn l'anulo dal uns'aa."
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Post by Bhaern Quel »

Interesting that you choose to bring up Silverhair Knights (Sineaters) and Darksong Knights.

Silverhair Knights PrC does not include the Sword Dancer must be female to qualify rule. Just Divine Ranks an Eilistraee ranger could take this PrC which is gender nuetral (if Eilistraee has Rangers another debate). There is also expanded classes that did not exist when F&P was written. It would be interesting to see a revised F&P to account for the additional Divine casters.

Darksong Knight is a Fighter subsitution level and clearly gender nuetral. It is designed for males that make up the bulk of the fighting force of many Eilistraee Houses. They recieve Divine favor, but males always could.
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Yasraena D'issan An'ar
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Post by Yasraena D'issan An'ar »

If Eilistraee were to be a viable option she could not be as gender bias as her mother. One of the things that drives the males to Vhaerun is the promise of throwing off the shackles the females have placed on them. Eilistraee if she hopes to save the males too would also need to be more egalitarian and less Matriarchal. The general cultural tendency of years of influence of Lolths doctrines on converts to Eilistraee would be a reason for a gender bias in practice but not dogma.

I personally feel a male could be a straight cleric of Eilistraee. Why not? Why couldn't a male drow upon seeing Eilistraee's people fall in love with the Dark Maiden and serve her faitfully? There are certainly male clerics of other feminine deities such as Sune, Sharess, and Chauntea.
Cha'kohk dosst qee'lak jhal zhah ap'za chiana :evillol:
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Post by Unen_Stealthfoot »

[quote="Bhaern Quel":2t1wbcc9][quote="Yasraena D'issan An'ar":2t1wbcc9]Well, then get out there and convert more guys! Or do what Raena did...marry a moon elf....have drow babies.....LOL[/quote:2t1wbcc9]

There is this of course, though in the past genectics indicated a strong chance of having a Drow Child, and occasional fair elf child, and even rarer a mixed blood child. Skin brown, eyes blue, type of thing. 3.X I think removed this option though.

Oh do not let the spider kisser distract you too much, part of her job appears to be to run down Eilistraee followers. *Grin*[/quote:2t1wbcc9]

[color=darkred:2t1wbcc9]I heard someone say on the old forum that there were no mixed-blood elves. That is to say, a drow-gold elf mating would make a drow usually, sometimes a gold elf, and sometimes, instead of a mix, an elf of another subrace, say a moon or wild elf. Not sure how that works though. :/ [/color:2t1wbcc9]
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