Think Eilistraee has many Saints?

Since the Chosen of Eilistraee is a religious oriented player group, naturally there is a place to have theological discussions. That is in-game religions; please leave real-world religion out of it. Debate the fine points of a certain dogma, how a church can enforce worship while staying true to its tenets or simply why one deity is better than another one is. All are free to talk about it here.

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Kirintha the Fair
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Think Eilistraee has many Saints?

Post by Kirintha the Fair »

in book of Exalted Deeds it introduces a new concept the "Saint" think Saints are something Eilistraee would have a number of as the church likely has its share of martyrs.
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Re: Think Eilistraee has many Saints?

Post by Bhaern Quel »

Well I would need to know more about what a "Saint" is, however many of the Chosen have died to bring the message and aid those that seek to follow it.
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Re: Think Eilistraee has many Saints?

Post by Shriastae Tivale »

Saints in general aren't frequently brought up in FR lore. Normally there are high priests, normal priests, believers, and Chosen (different from the Elistraeen definition of the word). That last one is probably what you're thinking about. A saint, as defined by Exalted Deeds, is a mortal made divine by a lifetime of exemplary deeds and the blessing of a divine force.

The term "Chosen" (for FR at large, [i:21bjok3o]not[/i:21bjok3o] for the Dark Maiden's church) is applied to the mortal champion of the god in question, normally won via exemplary deeds during specific tests. Chosen are raised above the mortal coil and given a significant portion of their god's divine power. Sound familiar? On Faerûn, the Chosen are basically saints. I don't know who Elistraee's Chosen [i:21bjok3o]is[/i:21bjok3o], though I'm perfectly aware of who her Chosen [i:21bjok3o]are[/i:21bjok3o].
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Re: Think Eilistraee has many Saints?

Post by Bhaern Quel »

[quote="Shriastae Tivale":1kus2psu]Saints in general aren't frequently brought up in FR lore. Normally there are high priests, normal priests, believers, and Chosen (different from the Elistraeen definition of the word). That last one is probably what you're thinking about. A saint, as defined by Exalted Deeds, is a mortal made divine by a lifetime of exemplary deeds and the blessing of a divine force.[/quote:1kus2psu]
In this case I do not believe Eilistraee has those types of "Saints" [quote:1kus2psu]

The term "Chosen" (for FR at large, [i:1kus2psu]not[/i:1kus2psu] for the Dark Maiden's church) is applied to the mortal champion of the god in question, normally won via exemplary deeds during specific tests. Chosen are raised above the mortal coil and given a significant portion of their god's divine power. Sound familiar? On Faerûn, the Chosen are basically saints. I don't know who Elistraee's Chosen [i:1kus2psu]is[/i:1kus2psu], though I'm perfectly aware of who her Chosen [i:1kus2psu]are[/i:1kus2psu].[/quote:1kus2psu]

As to Eilistraee followers using the word Chosen, it just means those that have Eilistraee as patron deity. Of course Qilué Veladorn, Chosen of Eilistraee, Chosen of Mystra is Chosen twice as far as FR is concerned, within Eilistraee communities she is referred to as Chosen of the Chosen *G*
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Re: Think Eilistraee has many Saints?

Post by Shriastae Tivale »

Man you guys are convoluted. :P
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Re: Think Eilistraee has many Saints?

Post by Bhaern Quel »

[quote="Shriastae Tivale":2otoym4t]Man you guys are convoluted. :P[/quote:2otoym4t]

*chuckles*
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Re: Think Eilistraee has many Saints?

Post by Kirintha the Fair »

was talking about book of exalted deeds Saints.

Its a template that reflects a person who thorugh martyrdom, and righteous life, has essentialy become a earthly celestial.
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Re: Think Eilistraee has many Saints?

Post by Shriastae Tivale »

Yes, I know what you were talking about. The template references a divinely-empowered mortal. There are [b:11o3qc72][i:11o3qc72]no[/i:11o3qc72][/b:11o3qc72] "saints" mentioned in FR lore, as far as I can tell. However, there are Chosen, which are thematically similar.
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Re: Think Eilistraee has many Saints?

Post by Rainbow Prism »

I will agree to that. The content of that guide is not exactly fitting for definitions outside Lawful Good exemplars. Culture of Eilistraee is more similar to oppressed faiths where complications cannot let such Saints to form. And do not forget that this guide while detailed and quite interesting, is on for classic D&D, with their own pantheon and rules not working for world of Toril.

You can try more universal template called Godblooded. It describes the certain qualities depending on chosen god and is awarded by deity in various interesting ways. There is no ready one described for her, but I can imagine what they would be like. It is actually easy to create, in my opinion and I have certain ideas about Godblooded of Eilistraee.
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Re: Think Eilistraee has many Saints?

Post by Aylstra Illianniis »

IIRC, Quilue would fit the definitions of both a Chosen (and she IS called Eilistraee's Chosen) AND a saint (she was both exemplary in the faith, and died in service to it). I'd say she is both.
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Re: Think Eilistraee has many Saints?

Post by Bhaern Quel »

[quote="Aylstra Illianniis":31szwh6y]IIRC, Quilue would fit the definitions of both a Chosen (and she IS called Eilistraee's Chosen) AND a saint (she was both exemplary in the faith, and died in service to it). I'd say she is both.[/quote:31szwh6y]

Oh I do not believe any would object to her being divine powered, Chosen of two deities clearly should do that. I inferred that the question was directed as to lessor followers that would be able to use the "Saint" template. I still believe the answer is no.
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Re: Think Eilistraee has many Saints?

Post by Shir'le E. Illios »

I do not know exactly what a "Saint" is in Exalted Deeds so I can't speak for that. I do know (to reiterate what's been said before) that the term "Chosen" basically has two separate, but related, use cases.

Generally in the Forgotten Realms a "Chosen" is someone chosen by their deity, having additional powers because of it. Most famously there are the Chosen of Mystra (I don't know where it stands exactly at the moment, but for me that's generally always been the Seven Sisters, including Qilué Veladorn, Elminster and Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun).

The second use, and the way it's used in the name of this board, is where certain followers consider themselves 'chosen' of the deity. Basically indicating that they're particularly devout. But they're [i:3kg8f7zv]not[/i:3kg8f7zv] explicitly chosen by the deity and do [i:3kg8f7zv]not[/i:3kg8f7zv] get additional powers. They're just normal followers who are very devoted to the deity. Even before I started this website I've seen followers of Eilistraee refer to themselves as "chosen on Eilistraee" particularly.

This makes Qilué Veladorn a particularly interesting case since both uses of the word apply to her (and hence why she's often referred to as "Chosen of the chosen" as Bhaern mentioned).

I do not know where "Saint" fits in in all this. But I can imagine that it's the same as the first use of the word "chosen".


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Re: Think Eilistraee has many Saints?

Post by Dostrealt »

[quote="Kirintha the Fair":2tgt33ht]in book of Exalted Deeds it introduces a new concept the "Saint" think Saints are something Eilistraee would have a number of as the church likely has its share of martyrs.[/quote:2tgt33ht]

Personally, when I look at the "generic" 3rd Edition books from WotC, I think of them as being "Greyhawk-lite" books and not necessarily something that applies to campaign settings (like Forgotten Realms). In fact, if you look at the "Exaulted Gods" section on pages 24-26, there is clearly a mention of Greyhawk gods and no mention of Forgotten Realms gods. So I do not think this book naturally connects to Forgotten Realms...and Eilistraee. But it is possible to bolt anything onto anything else.

So your first question is: "Do you want to use saints with FR?" If you do, and it sounds like you do, your next question becomes: "Does the saint template fit well with the Church of Eilistraee?"

If you are a GM running a drow based game, you do not need anyone's permission to do this. So just do it and have fun.

But if you are a player seeking for support to have this template, then you should be talking to your GM, rather than to other drow fans. This clearly is a game-changing template that a GM is offered as a potential plot device.

Given the restrictions, I think it would be [i:2tgt33ht]possible[/i:2tgt33ht] to have an Eilistraee worshipping saint:
[quote="Book of Exalted Deeds page 29":2tgt33ht]In order to qualify for sainthood, a character must meet the following qualifications, as well as any additional requirements set by the DM:
[list:2tgt33ht][*:2tgt33ht]Must be of good alignment[/*:m:2tgt33ht]
[*:2tgt33ht]Must have at least three exalted feats[/*:m:2tgt33ht]
[*:2tgt33ht]Must never have lost the benefit of exalted feats or class abilities because of committing an evil act, even if the character properly atoned[/*:m:2tgt33ht]
[*:2tgt33ht]Must at all times behave in a way the DM considers to be exemplary of the exalted path described in this book[/*:m:2tgt33ht]
[*:2tgt33ht]Must be at least 6th level[/*:m:2tgt33ht]
[*:2tgt33ht]Must make an extraordinary sacrifice (not necessarily his or her life) for the good of another[/*:m:2tgt33ht][/list:u:2tgt33ht][/quote:2tgt33ht]

I'm not sure why it would be "better" to have a "saint of Eilistraee" instead of a "Chosen of Eilistraee" but maybe a saint can be of lesser power or somesuch.

From what I read a saint turns into a native outsider, when they make their big sacrifice and Eilistraee and/or the most important celestials who serve her decide to turn the character into a saint.

It is interesting that you think that there would be lots of saints (given that there are a lot of martyrs). The conditions are quite strict. I wonder how many drow get to be faithful servants of Eilistraee without ever having been tempted (or tricked) by Lolth. I think that saints could be quite rare.

One thing about this template is that I think it could be used as a "trick" by a GM to return a drow PC to play after that PC is killed saving the life of another player or NPC. And if you had a TPK, where the entire party died trying to save innocent drow, that would be an excuse to give the entire party the saint template, have them wake up somewhere else, and put them back into the game. From that point of view, I think the saint template could be a good thing.

If I was a GM and a player asked for this, I probably would not hand it out. But if a player "asked" to be given this, I'm not sure I would go with it.

There is also the fact that you need to have already have handed out at least three exaulted feats to PCs before they qualify for sainthood (aside from the other restrictions). That means you pretty much need to build this thing into your campaign from day one. And some of those exaulted feats would be a bit problematic to Eilistraee worshippers.

Favoured of the Companions, Knight of the Stars and Servant of the Heavens all require an oath to celestial beings. I think that would be incompatible with a drow serving Eilistraee (and Eilistraee alone). I suppose you could design new celestial organisations that have some sort of tie-in with Eilistraee and create replacement feats with that new background fluff.

A lot of the other feats are tied into specific classes or high ability scores. If you are designing your campaign, you are going to need to make sure that your PCs can take three of them without needing to be epic characters first. In fact, it seems to me, that you would need to railroad PCs into specifically taking exaulted feats to make the saint concept to work in a game.

The Nimbus of Light path (Nimbus of Light, Holy Radiance and Stigmata) might work OK, but I think that Stigmata is a bit of a weird ability and drow running around the Underdark glowing like light bulbs could be a bit unusual.

The various feats in the Sacred Vow path might also work OK, but I'm not sure how many of those vows are compatible with the way that Eilistraee wants drow to behave.

However, if you looked through all of this sort of stuff, tossed the stuff that you thought was a bit too hard to fit into drow culture and gave the PCs a reason to want to choose exaulted feats, you might be able to convert one or two PCs into saints at some point.

Good luck.
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