Starlight Enclave: The Aevendrow (some spoolers)

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Starlight Enclave: The Aevendrow (some spoolers)

Post by Leema Har'gachi »

So I've just finished up R.A. Salvatores new book the Starlight Enclave, have any one else here read it yet. The Aevendrow that was mentioned in Dragon Magazine a month or two back are at the main focus of the book and I don't think I really care for them. It seems like the aevendrow really aren't very interesting culturally, they sing, they dance, they party, and fight all the time. I don't see any really unique about them other them living in the FAR NORTH, Also it seem the during the time most Drow traveled to the underdark, the aevendrow simply traveled far north. I feel like they really want them to seem culturally different from the drow we already know, but every thing they have culturally Eilistraee's faithful and the nation of Miyeritar already had from the begining. Hell they even have an extraplanar archenemy like Eilistraee's faithfful instead of demons its slaad. If any of you have also read the Starlight Enclave I'd love to hear your opinions on the Aevendrow, right now I feel myea about them and once they get a mechanic write up in game I doubt my opinion will change.
CODENAME:Leema
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Re: Starlight Enclave: The Aevendrow (some spoolers)

Post by Irennan »

Can't read RAS' stuff, honestly. It looks like the dude doesn't know the basic principles behind creative writing, how the brain creates models of the stuff it reads. The result is that he tells even while trying to show, that concepts like the character filter are entirely alien to his writing, that what he writes feels impersonal and extraneous. Like some dude sitting next to you and telling you his latest incredible exploit, rather than living in the skin of a character. Not to mention that, as a consequence, his dialogues are awful for a variety of reason, including amateurish stuff like head-hopping. Simply put, he doesn't understand what the goal of writing is. RAS is popular and sells a lot because he knows very well which tropes to use to cater to people, but his writing is a mess.

I've talked to ARC readers, and from what they told me, the Aevendrow are crap writing. A weird utopia where no problem ever exists and everything you want can be magically summoned. They're so pure that they don't even know the meaning of money. They decided that if any outsider knew about them, it could only bring ruin (those pesky savage outsiders!), so they wipe off the memory of anyone who wants to leave (after kidnapping and imprisoning those who come near their awesome city of awesomeness, apparently). But I'm told that they're so pure that this memory-wiping is involuntary, and its involuntary nature is romanticized with how wonderful Callidae is--it's so great that all who pass through would willingly give up their memories to protect it.

The one thing that surprised me was the use of an utopia that lacks any credibility to "fix" the drow. Why would anyone ever use something like that as a central piece in a story, if not to tear it down? How does something this perfect generate any meaningful conflict? "Meaningful" means conflict based on flaws that exist in the way people interact with--i.e. try to "control"--each other, that are integral part of their sense of self, and that generate mistakes that are doggedly repeated because people aren't going to let go of their "control theories". This is the kind of stuff that makes our "domesticated" brains crave.
RAS said he created a pretty cool place, and that he'd enjoy gaming in such a setting. What kind of story are you going to write or play that are set in such a place? How does anything in there generate conflict? The only possible plot are about something or someone not conforming to its ideals trying to demolish it (be it people who live inside it, or extrenal threats). Idk which criteria do RAS uses while trying to design settings, but interesting=possibilities for meaningful conflict, and this has little to none (also, way to suck his own d*ck).
The nail on the coffin is answering to every question with "a wizard did it" and not even having a magic system (if it can do everything in unspecified ways, it isn't one), the bane of any believability in world building. Though, to be fair, the lack of a real magic system is to be blamed on D&D itself.

As for the similarities with Eilistraee, there might be a few, yes (namely the focus on arts, dance, music, and the cooperative nature of their societies). RAS is ripping off Ed on many accounts, he even claimed to be the creator of the FR drow (whe he didn't even create friggin' Lolth), he dismissed the work of other authors, like Elaine, on multiple occasions, and is taking credit for the idea of good drow cultures. Then again, he's always come off as an inflated ego to me, this behavior is squalid and tells a lot of him as a person, but it's nothing new.

He's been recently repeating over and over that he dislikes Eilistraee, while on the other hand he's been making weird excuses to justify why he never acknowledged her and her goodly culture ("I don't use the gods because they change from edition to edition!" An argument so easily debunked--and so massively hypocritical--it's pathetic). If anything, I'm glad he doesn't touch her: not only his writing is low quality, he also indulges in negative LGBTQ+ tropes (like "killing your gays"), he forces negative stereotypes on victims of abuse (his treatment of Entreri in Relentless is revolting), and he generally doesn't get where the problem with the drow and representation lies. I would never want to see any of this associated to Eilistraee--we already had to endure Smedman/Athans and their brain-vomit of a "hurr durr, goodness is but a shade lighter", we don't need anything that RAS considers a "moral virtue" slapped on Eilistraee.
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Re: Starlight Enclave: The Aevendrow (some spoolers)

Post by Leema Har'gachi »

Irennan wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:54 pm Can't read RAS' stuff, honestly. It looks like the dude doesn't know the basic principles behind creative writing, how the brain creates models of the stuff it reads. The result is that he tells even while trying to show, that concepts like the character filter are entirely alien to his writing, that what he writes feels impersonal and extraneous. Like some dude sitting next to you and telling you his latest incredible exploit, rather than living in the skin of a character. Not to mention that, as a consequence, his dialogues are awful for a variety of reason, including amateurish stuff like head-hopping. Simply put, he doesn't understand what the goal of writing is. RAS is popular and sells a lot because he knows very well which tropes to use to cater to people, but his writing is a mess.

I've talked to ARC readers, and from what they told me, the Aevendrow are crap writing. A weird utopia where no problem ever exists and everything you want can be magically summoned. They're so pure that they don't even know the meaning of money. They decided that if any outsider knew about them, it could only bring ruin (those pesky savage outsiders!), so they wipe off the memory of anyone who wants to leave (after kidnapping and imprisoning those who come near their awesome city of awesomeness, apparently). But I'm told that they're so pure that this memory-wiping is involuntary, and its involuntary nature is romanticized with how wonderful Callidae is--it's so great that all who pass through would willingly give up their memories to protect it.
Yep, they are indeed correct though the memory wiping so more of an Ultimatum. "Yeah, we don't really trust any of your guys enough to keep are exsistance a secert so you can either stay here and live as one of our citizens or you can go home but we gotta wip away your memories of how to get here so you can't bring anyone who might harm us." And that not even affective in universe as a elf that had been there and returned home with his memories wiped end up still being able to recall his experiences there. Though everyone in silverymoon thought him insane, except Jarlaxle because of course HE would believe anything dark elf related these days.
Irennan wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:54 pm The one thing that surprised me was the use of an utopia that lacks any credibility to "fix" the drow. Why would anyone ever use something like that as a central piece in a story, if not to tear it down? How does something this perfect generate any meaningful conflict? "Meaningful" means conflict based on flaws that exist in the way people interact with--i.e. try to "control"--each other, that are integral part of their sense of self, and that generate mistakes that are doggedly repeated because people aren't going to let go of their "control theories". This is the kind of stuff that makes our "domesticated" brains crave.
RAS said he created a pretty cool place, and that he'd enjoy gaming in such a setting. What kind of story are you going to write or play that are set in such a place? How does anything in there generate conflict? The only possible plot are about something or someone not conforming to its ideals trying to demolish it (be it people who live inside it, or extrenal threats). Idk which criteria do RAS uses while trying to design settings, but interesting=possibilities for meaningful conflict, and this has little to none (also, way to suck his own d*ck).
The nail on the coffin is answering to every question with "a wizard did it" and not even having a magic system (if it can do everything in unspecified ways, it isn't one), the bane of any believability in world building. Though, to be fair, the lack of a real magic system is to be blamed on D&D itself.
Their really are not any conflicts from the Aevendrow in the book, sure they talk about the memory wiping thing, by the four companions basically agree that they would let them do it to them anyways and it basically has no bearing on the plot afterwards. Hell, the only conflict in the story comes from the Slaadi who are only in the third chapter and the last three chapters meaning only about 40-50 pages are about the books main threat and the rest of the 286 page book is a glorified tour of Callidae and their customs. Its... Weird, and stuff with Callidae makes we wish for EIlistraee to have her own book series sooooooooooooooo Baaaaaaaaaddlllllllly. That is basically what the Aevendrow are discount Eilistreeny and got the feeling the Lorendrow down in Chult which the Aevendrow offhandly mentioned is probably the same. But hey, the Aevendrow don't have any innate magic in them. SO they got that going for them.
Irennan wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:54 pm As for the similarities with Eilistraee, there might be a few, yes (namely the focus on arts, dance, music, and the cooperative nature of their societies). RAS is ripping off Ed on many accounts, he even claimed to be the creator of the FR drow (whe he didn't even create friggin' Lolth), he dismissed the work of other authors, like Elaine, on multiple occasions, and is taking credit for the idea of good drow cultures. Then again, he's always come off as an inflated ego to me, this behavior is squalid and tells a lot of him as a person, but it's nothing new.

He's been recently repeating over and over that he dislikes Eilistraee, while on the other hand he's been making weird excuses to justify why he never acknowledged her and her goodly culture ("I don't use the gods because they change from edition to edition!" An argument so easily debunked--and so massively hypocritical--it's pathetic). If anything, I'm glad he doesn't touch her: not only his writing is low quality, he also indulges in negative LGBTQ+ tropes (like "killing your gays"), he forces negative stereotypes on victims of abuse (his treatment of Entreri in Relentless is revolting), and he generally doesn't get where the problem with the drow and representation lies. I would never want to see any of this associated to Eilistraee--we already had to endure Smedman/Athans and their brain-vomit of a "hurr durr, goodness is but a shade lighter", we don't need anything that RAS considers a "moral virtue" slapped on Eilistraee.
Yeah, I doubt we will every get anything like Elaine's book series ever again. It is a shame too, WOTC just doesn't get fan of the Dark Elves... then again I'm a 1st edition nut who like it back when the only thing drow lost on the surface was their magic resistance of 50% +1 per class level and they had all those other spell-like abilities at 4th level or higher. *sigh* :'(
CODENAME:Leema
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Re: Starlight Enclave: The Aevendrow (some spoolers)

Post by Bhaern Quel »

Over at Candlekeep was a scroll about that book. The review was not kind.
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Re: Starlight Enclave: The Aevendrow (some spoolers)

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Leema Har'gachi wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:50 pm
Their really are not any conflicts from the Aevendrow in the book, sure they talk about the memory wiping thing, by the four companions basically agree that they would let them do it to them anyways and it basically has no bearing on the plot afterwards. Hell, the only conflict in the story comes from the Slaadi who are only in the third chapter and the last three chapters meaning only about 40-50 pages are about the books main threat and the rest of the 286 page book is a glorified tour of Callidae and their customs. Its... Weird, and stuff with Callidae makes we wish for EIlistraee to have her own book series sooooooooooooooo Baaaaaaaaaddlllllllly. That is basically what the Aevendrow are discount Eilistreeny and got the feeling the Lorendrow down in Chult which the Aevendrow offhandly mentioned is probably the same. But hey, the Aevendrow don't have any innate magic in them. SO they got that going for them.
I'd honestly be scared if they announced a series about Eilistraee. With RAS being in charge of the new Forgotten Realms lore, he'd do her dirty--AGAIN, for like the 384736852734577th time. RAS is the kind of author who uses his characters and stories to force-strawman his opinion on his readers, rather than, you know, having the characters be coherent to themselves and their ideas.

This means that characters that should do X can suddenly do the exact opposite, to conform to what RAS wants them to do to force his view on the reader. This went to the point of Mielikki approving of friggin' genocide (and the killing of orc babies) just so that Drizzt could take the moral high ground and pontificate about how bad religion is, because that's the take that RAS he wanted to shove down the readers' throat.

He also often warps the creations of other authors (or outright shits on them, see Mielikki), and he'd have a field day with Eilistraee, given the personal beef he has with her. So, personally speaking, unless RAS gets removed, a series about Eilistraee would be one of the worst news I could ever receive.
Hell, the only conflict in the story comes from the Slaadi who are only in the third chapter and the last three chapters meaning only about 40-50 pages are about the books main threat and the rest of the 286 page book is a glorified tour of Callidae and their customs. Its... Weird
Heh, it's not weird, it's wrong. A giant info-dump masked as a book is an insult to the readers. Then again, many Drizzt readers keep eating all RAS puts out, regardless of quality. Good for them, I guess.
Last edited by Irennan on Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Starlight Enclave: The Aevendrow (some spoolers)

Post by Irennan »

Bhaern Quel wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:35 pm Over at Candlekeep was a scroll about that book. The review was not kind.
Yeah, that review lined with what I learned from the ARC readers.
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Re: Starlight Enclave: The Aevendrow (some spoolers)

Post by Leema Har'gachi »

Irennan wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:53 pm
I'd honestly be scared if they announced a series about Eilistraee. With RAS being in charge of the new Forgotten Realms lore, he'd do her dirty--AGAIN, for like the 384736852734577th time. RAS is the kind of author who uses his characters and stories to force-strawman his opinion on his readers, rather than, you know, having the characters be coherent to themselves and their ideas.

This means that characters that should do X can suddenly do the exact opposite, to conform to what RAS wants them to do to force his view on the reader. This went to the point of Mielikki approving of friggin' genocide (and the killing of orc babies) just so that Drizzt could take the moral high ground and pontificate about how bad religion is, because that's the take that RAS he wanted to shove down the readers' throat.

He also often warps the creations of other authors (or outright shits on them, see Mielikki), and he'd have a field day with Eilistraee, given the personal beef he has with her. So, unless RAS gets removed, a series about Eilistraee would be one of the worst news I could ever receive.
Yeah, you got a really good point. Personally though, I don't think its Just R.A. Salvatore some of the other supplemental books writers in the recent material have been doing the same to several other realms characters and gods. Really Most of WOTC's recent D&D works have rubbed me the wrong way especially when it involves the realms.
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Re: Starlight Enclave: The Aevendrow (some spoolers)

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True, but RAS has been put in charge of everything drow now, and both he and WotC have done nothing but dismissing the work of authors like Ed or Elaine, while praising themselves. Both he and WotC are parading about how "woke" they are, how they're going to "save" the drow, after doggedly shitting on the good drow culture already in the setting (or ignorining it) for 30 friggin' years--longer than I've been alive!

They are going over and over on how badwrong and insensitive the work of those who came before is, conveniently forgoing to mention that Ed and Elaine were the ones that pushed for the drow to be nuanced, while RAS chased the "good blacks" trope with the Drizzt exceptionalism. RAS and Drizzt "my race is a bunch of dicks, but I'm so unique and exceptional" Do'Urden are the reason why the drow are awful to begin with, both in terms of worldbuilding quality, and in terms of representation. RAS was pissed that others were doing good drow, that's all. He's still pissed, but now he's getting his way, and is trying to make the newcomers forget the good stuff that others created.

Oh, btw, now Lolthites are identified by tribal face-marks that they have no control over (those marks are willed into existence on their skin by Lolth), so you know who you can kill on sight based on how they look! Isn't that awesome? Now *this* screams good representation and incredible storytelling ;)
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Re: Starlight Enclave: The Aevendrow (some spoolers)

Post by Leema Har'gachi »

Irennan wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:12 pm True, but RAS has been put in charge of everything drow now, and both he and WotC have done nothing but dismissing the work of authors like Ed or Elaine, while praising themselves. Both he and WotC are parading about how "woke" they are, how they're going to "save" the drow, after doggedly shitting on the good drow culture already in the setting (or ignorining it) for 30 friggin' years--longer than I've been alive!

They are going over and over how badwrong and insensitive the work of those who came before is, conveniently forgoing to mention that Ed and Elaine were the ones that pushed for the drow to be nuanced, while RAS chased the "good blacks" trope with the Drizzt exceptionalism. RAS and Drizzt "my race is a bunch of dicks, but I'm so unique and exceptional" Do'Urden are the reason why the drow are awful to begin with, both in terms of worldbuilding quality, and in terms of representation. RAS was pissed that others were doing good drow, that's all. He's still pissed, but now he's getting his way, and is trying to make the newcomers forget the good stuff that others created.
Indeed, it is so disheartening the state of the dark elves or really Dungeons and Dragons in general but most people act like everything is fine... its really not, but your right it has been like that for a long long long time.
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Re: Starlight Enclave: The Aevendrow (some spoolers)

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I've honestly stopped caring about D&D and FR lore a long time ago. The underwhelming quality of the stories being put out led me to drop D&D and FR entirely, in favor of creating my stuff. The only reason why I'm still in some FR groups is that, if someone starts to go off with stuff like "bUt eILisTRaEe iS sEXisT" or some other sh*t, I can tell the truth on how Athans actively tried to get people to dislike her by sh*tting on her lore (that was one of the intended goals of LP, btw) and I can explain how Eilistraee actually is. That way, I'll at least prevent people from disliking her for something she isn't.

It probably sounds like obsessive behavior, and it probably actually is, but heh, it's the only thing keeping me in FR groups these days.
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Re: Starlight Enclave: The Aevendrow (some spoolers)

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Irennan wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:22 pm I've honestly stopped caring about D&D and FR lore a long time ago. The underwhelming quality of the stories being put out led me to drop D&D and FR entirely, in favor of creating my stuff. The only reason why I'm still in some FR groups is that, if someone starts to go off with stuff like "bUt eILisTRaEe iS sEXisT" or some other sh*t, I can tell the truth on how Athans actively tried to get people to dislike her by sh*tting on her lore (that was one of the intended goals of LP, btw) and I can explain how Eilistraee actually is. That way, I'll at least prevent people from disliking her for something she isn't.

It probably sounds like obsessive behavior, and it probably actually is, but heh, it's the only thing keeping me in FR groups these days.
Are there really still people spouting (like a whale) the "but eiliestraee is sexist thing" on the internet, I haven't seen one of those in over four years. But that one was also all drow are drizzt clone person too, so ehh.
Also was this the review in question: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?T ... %2Cenclave
Because this guy is spot on, I haven't finished reading his review yet, but what I have read is one to one my thought on the book.
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Re: Starlight Enclave: The Aevendrow (some spoolers)

Post by Irennan »

Yes, people still do that. They pop out when someone asks questions related to Eilistraee, or even when someone says that they made a character that follows her, or on lore videos about her, and so on.

That's the scroll, yes, sno4wy is the reviewer.
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Re: Starlight Enclave: The Aevendrow (some spoolers)

Post by Leema Har'gachi »

Irennan wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:09 pm Yes, people still do that. They pop out when someone asks questions related to Eilistraee, or even when someone says that they made a character that follows her, or on lore videos about her, and so on.

That's the scroll, yes, sno4wy is the reviewer.
He does a very good job of summerizes the import problems with the book. Also the Slaad are so tacked on in the book with no explains its stupid, but he did foreshadow Ygorl's presence with a small (and very throwaway line) early in the book. Still doesn't changed how tacked on they are. Should have titled the book "A Tour of Callidae: A Drizzt novel", it would be way more accurate.
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Re: Starlight Enclave: The Aevendrow (some spoolers)

Post by Irennan »

sno4wy is a woman, I believe (I know her from other groups), but yeah: her review of various books are always accurate and in-depth.
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Re: Starlight Enclave: The Aevendrow (some spoolers)

Post by Leema Har'gachi »

Irennan wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:50 pm sno4wy is a woman, I believe (I know her from other groups), but yeah: her review of various books are always accurate and in-depth.
opps sorry, online it is always hard to figure out what gender/identity someone is from text.
CODENAME:Leema
Real Name:Leema Apollyon Har'gachi
Class:Variant Illusionist Favored Soul {gestalt}
Race:Shadow Drow
Height:5'8"
Weight:158 Ib.
Hair:Yellowish
Eyes:Purple(pinwheel)
Skin:Pitch-black(surrounded by Shadowy Purple Aura)
Deity:Eilistraee
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