The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the gods

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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Dostrealt »

[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":20sd8xqm]Both Neverwinter Nights games are set during the 3E timeline, so before the Spellplague. I think the second expansion for NWN2 includes hints at the coming Spellplague or such, but I haven't played that one.

The MMO Neverwinter is set after the Spellplague.

The fall of the Netherese Empire is a very separate event from the Spellplague. But have to do with the weave, but they're centuries apart.[/quote:20sd8xqm]

[i:20sd8xqm]Heroes of Neverwinter[/i:20sd8xqm] was also set after The Spellplage and so is the [i:20sd8xqm]Neverwinter Campaign Setting[/i:20sd8xqm].
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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

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[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":3a9uiyg8]I love your optimism there, but WotC has [i:3a9uiyg8]always[/i:3a9uiyg8] been in favor of Drizzt-type lone good drow who struggled to escape their evil race. One of the reasons they got rid of Eilistraee,a s I understand it, is because she made it too easy for these kind of characters. You can't be a precious little good drow snowflake if you've got a whole religion of good drow.[/quote:3a9uiyg8]

I think that, during the 3rd Edition Era, WotC listened to people who were complaining that "Forgotten Realms was too complicated" and decided to make a 4e Realms that was "simplified". I think they tossed out a ton of stuff (not just the drow gods) to try to "sell" the concept that the Realms was not complex. With the drow being relegated to "monster" status, they wanted to have just one drow deity.

I've not read the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide yet, but I think they [i:3a9uiyg8]might[/i:3a9uiyg8] have done this to other "monster races" too. :?

And all the way through the 4th Edition Era they have had fans complaining about various aspects of the Spellplague plot. It really does seem that this Sundering thing is being sold as an "antidote" to the Spellplague. I'm not sure if they will bring Eilistraee back, but I'm betting that they bring back most of the things that 4e took away.

[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":3a9uiyg8]We'll see, but I'm not particularly hopeful (nor am I certain that I really care anymore).[/quote:3a9uiyg8]

My personal "solution" is to stay in the pre-Spellplague era, for various reasons (including what was done with the drow gods).

I'm not planning to by any 5th Edition product at this stage. I'm not one of these "early adopter" people that buy things without knowing what is in them. But if any 5e Realms products create anything new and useful, I won't rule out buying them.

What I will be looking for is specific information about the sort of fluff included in any 5e Underdark products. It is the fluff - not the crunch - that will be the deal-maker/deal-breaker for me. I have no interest in learning the 5e rules.
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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Irennan »

[quote="Dostrealt":3s3tcoks]
I always thought that Eilistraee was working to fix things between the drow and the elves.[/quote:3s3tcoks]

True, but there must be willingness on the elven deities side for it. As it is said in Demihuman deities, the relation between Eilistraee and the Seldarine is strained at best. It sounds to me as if the elven deities tolerate Eilistraee, but nothing more than that. The you have the fact that the Seldarine do NOTHING in order to rebuild the bridges, in order to encourage elves to give the drow who want to chnage a chance. I see drow willing to worship the ones who are as guilty as Lolth for the status quo only after they decide to actually cooperate with Eilistraee and to actually accept them for what they are.

[quote:3s3tcoks][quote="Irennan":3s3tcoks]I would just prefer if the 'transformation' and curse removal were downplayed, because -really- as I said, Eilistraee sacrificing for her people is right, but that's not what happened.

They had her basically abandoning everything she fought for and dedicated her life to -all of sudden- to accomplish something that her followers didn't need or probably even want, something completely unnecessary and irrelevant to her goal, and that is totally not right. It clearly was a Deus ex Machina to get rid of her and all good [i:3s3tcoks]drow[/i:3s3tcoks]. The redemption she wishes for is about freedom of choice: considering that, what she did in the novels is out of character, other than being very stupid for her goal (especially considering that by doing so she actually, knowingly abandoned the vast majority of drow -the ones who needed her the most- and made it almost impossible for the transformed dark elves to even interact with drow, therefore severely harming her quest).*[/quote:3s3tcoks]

Perhaps the new brown-elf race could be used as neutral race that deals with both the elves and the drow. :?[/quote:3s3tcoks]

Drow see them as elves (i.e. kill on sight, everything they might say is considered as not worthy o being listened to), that would hardly work, unless Eilistraee is back and starts getting drow followers who could backup the brown elves. The drow need someone who shows them that a different kind of life is possible and that re-initiates them to (actual) life and in their situation -for most of them- that can only be another drow.
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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

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[quote="Irennan":cotlkbi9][quote="Dostrealt":cotlkbi9]I always thought that Eilistraee was working to fix things between the drow and the elves.[/quote:cotlkbi9]

True, but there must be willingness on the elven deities side for it. As it is said in Demihuman deities, the relation between Eilistraee and the Seldarine is strained at best. It sounds to me as if the elven deities tolerate Eilistraee, but nothing more than that. The you have the fact that the Seldarine do NOTHING in order to rebuild the bridges, in order to encourage elves to give the drow who want to chnage a chance. I see drow willing to worship the ones who are as guilty as Lolth for the status quo only after they decide to actually cooperate with Eilistraee and to actually accept them for what they are.[/quote:cotlkbi9]

How about the non-drow worshippers of Eilistraee that I heard about recently? Wouldn't they count as rebuilding the bridge?

[quote="Dostrealt":cotlkbi9][quote="Irennan":cotlkbi9]I would just prefer if the 'transformation' and curse removal were downplayed, because -really- as I said, Eilistraee sacrificing for her people is right, but that's not what happened.

They had her basically abandoning everything she fought for and dedicated her life to -all of sudden- to accomplish something that her followers didn't need or probably even want, something completely unnecessary and irrelevant to her goal, and that is totally not right. It clearly was a Deus ex Machina to get rid of her and all good [i:cotlkbi9]drow[/i:cotlkbi9]. The redemption she wishes for is about freedom of choice: considering that, what she did in the novels is out of character, other than being very stupid for her goal (especially considering that by doing so she actually, knowingly abandoned the vast majority of drow -the ones who needed her the most- and made it almost impossible for the transformed dark elves to even interact with drow, therefore severely harming her quest).*[/quote:cotlkbi9]

Perhaps the new brown-elf race could be used as neutral race that deals with both the elves and the drow. :?[/quote:cotlkbi9]

Drow see them as elves (i.e. kill on sight, everything they might say is considered as not worthy o being listened to), that would hardly work, unless Eilistraee is back and starts getting drow followers who could backup the brown elves. The drow need someone who shows them that a different kind of life is possible and that re-initiates them to (actual) life and in their situation -for most of them- that can only be another drow.[/quote]

Maybe the evil drow (of the "there are no drow deities except Lolth" era) act like that, but drow that worshipped Eilistraee would be unlikely to kill those brown ex-drow on sight.

So if Eilistraee does come back and these brown elves are retained, I can see them becoming elven worshippers of Eilistraee and making the deity accessible to surface-dwelling PC elves. Those brown elves would not suddenly forget about their history and ignore Eilistraee.
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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Irennan »

[quote="Dostrealt":gb9haklh][quote="Irennan":gb9haklh][quote="Dostrealt":gb9haklh]I always thought that Eilistraee was working to fix things between the drow and the elves.[/quote:gb9haklh]

True, but there must be willingness on the elven deities side for it. As it is said in Demihuman deities, the relation between Eilistraee and the Seldarine is strained at best. It sounds to me as if the elven deities tolerate Eilistraee, but nothing more than that. The you have the fact that the Seldarine do NOTHING in order to rebuild the bridges, in order to encourage elves to give the drow who want to chnage a chance. I see drow willing to worship the ones who are as guilty as Lolth for the status quo only after they decide to actually cooperate with Eilistraee and to actually accept them for what they are.[/quote:gb9haklh]

How about the non-drow worshippers of Eilistraee that I heard about recently? Wouldn't they count as rebuilding the bridge?[/quote:gb9haklh]

They have nothing to do with the Seldarine, tho. It's their choice.

[quote:gb9haklh]
Maybe the evil drow (of the "there are no drow deities except Lolth" era) act like that, but drow that worshipped Eilistraee would be unlikely to kill those brown ex-drow on sight.

So if Eilistraee does come back and these brown elves are retained, I can see them becoming elven worshippers of Eilistraee and making the deity accessible to surface-dwelling PC elves. Those brown elves would not suddenly forget about their history and ignore Eilistraee.[/quote:gb9haklh]

Evil drow of any era act like that, not only of the Spellplague era.

But, yes. That would totally happen. I even think that brown elves kept worshipping Eilistraee no matter what. But again, Eilistraee has to come back for what you described to make some sense.
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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

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[quote="Irennan":3u5ctm81][quote="Dostrealt":3u5ctm81][quote="Irennan":3u5ctm81]<snip - my quote removed>

True, but there must be willingness on the elven deities side for it. As it is said in Demihuman deities, the relation between Eilistraee and the Seldarine is strained at best. It sounds to me as if the elven deities tolerate Eilistraee, but nothing more than that. The you have the fact that the Seldarine do NOTHING in order to rebuild the bridges, in order to encourage elves to give the drow who want to chnage a chance. I see drow willing to worship the ones who are as guilty as Lolth for the status quo only after they decide to actually cooperate with Eilistraee and to actually accept them for what they are.[/quote:3u5ctm81]

How about the non-drow worshippers of Eilistraee that I heard about recently? Wouldn't they count as rebuilding the bridge?[/quote:3u5ctm81]

They have nothing to do with the Seldarine, tho. It's their choice.[/quote:3u5ctm81]

True.

But in D&D, gods exist in an environment where people believe that multiple deities exist. People do not have to choose just one to believe in. Clerics may choose a single deity, but some ordinary people pay respect to multiple gods. If you have some surface elves worshipping Eilistraee and also paying respect to one or more Seldarine gods or some surface elves worshipping a Seldarine god and also paying respect to Eilistraee, that would be the start of the bridge.

[quote="Irennan":3u5ctm81][quote="Dostrealt":3u5ctm81]Maybe the evil drow (of the "there are no drow deities except Lolth" era) act like that, but drow that worshipped Eilistraee would be unlikely to kill those brown ex-drow on sight.

So if Eilistraee does come back and these brown elves are retained, I can see them becoming elven worshippers of Eilistraee and making the deity accessible to surface-dwelling PC elves. Those brown elves would not suddenly forget about their history and ignore Eilistraee.[/quote:3u5ctm81]

Evil drow of any era act like that, not only of the Spellplague era.

But, yes. That would totally happen. I even think that brown elves kept worshipping Eilistraee no matter what. But again, Eilistraee has to come back for what you described to make some sense.[/quote:3u5ctm81]

The D&D Starter Set is out for 5e and the PHB, DMG and MM are going to follow that. I'm not sure how long that will take, but if there are going to be new Forgotten Realms books, they will follow that. I'm not entirely sure how this core setting thing will work. Maybe they might just make a core Underdark book that mentions the drow. But presumably, these brown elves will need to be covered in some sort of product (unless they are going to pretend they never existed). If that product mentions the local religions, you will have an answer. Until then, we can really only guess.
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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Irennan »

[quote="Dostrealt":3iamo6wx]

True.

But in D&D, gods exist in an environment where people believe that multiple deities exist. People do not have to choose just one to believe in. Clerics may choose a single deity, but some ordinary people pay respect to multiple gods. If you have some surface elves worshipping Eilistraee and also paying respect to one or more Seldarine gods or some surface elves worshipping a Seldarine god and also paying respect to Eilistraee, that would be the start of the bridge.[/quote:3iamo6wx]

TBH, I don't think so. The Seldarine cannot prevent their followers from worshipping other deities (unless they are clerics). What would actually start to build the bridge is having the elven pantheon helping Eilistraee in her quest, encouraging their followers to support and welcome her drow instead of -you know-, attacking any dark elf on sight, which would only prove that what Lolth taught them is actually true. What they need to do is allowing their cultures to mix and their people to be united, but that doesn't happen. Most elves still believe that the existence of a non neglectable number of drow who made a different choice is just a myth, and even more unbelievable that they have a goddess who has made her quest of redeeming all of their people. The Seldarine and their priest do nothing to change this mindset (and the fact that the request of the Eilistraeen ambassador on Evermeet to initiate a cult of the Dark Maiden on the island was immediately refused proves that), despite the efforts of Eilistraee and her followers and this attitude plays a quite big role in pushing the drow towards Lolth (just like the exile of even the ones who were clearly innocent did).
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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

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[quote="Irennan":1valljpb]TBH, I don't think so. The Seldarine cannot prevent their followers from worshipping other deities (unless they are clerics). What would actually start to build the bridge is having the elven pantheon helping Eilistraee in her quest, encouraging their followers to support and welcome her drow instead of -you know-, attacking any dark elf on sight, which would only prove that what Lolth taught them is actually true. What they need to do is allowing their cultures to mix and their people to be united, but that doesn't happen. Most elves still believe that the existence of a non neglectable number of drow who made a different choice is just a myth, and even more unbelievable that they have a goddess who has made her quest of redeeming all of their people. The Seldarine and their priest do nothing to change this mindset (and the fact that the request of the Eilistraeen ambassador on Evermeet to initiate a cult of the Dark Maiden on the island was immediately refused proves that), despite the efforts of Eilistraee and her followers and this attitude plays a quite big role in pushing the drow towards Lolth (just like the exile of even the ones who were clearly innocent did).[/quote:1valljpb]

There is definitely some nastiness going on there.

I'm not sure it is all down to the gods, though. I think that plenty of elves are xenophobic without any instructions from the gods. The elves have a pretty poor reputation with other races up in Wildspace, as they like to throw their weight about a bit.
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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Irennan »

[quote="Irennan":h01vd6hz]From the (free) basic D&D (5E) rules document:

[quote:h01vd6hz][...]And there, well out of the sunlight, is a lone drow -a fugitive from the subterranean expanse of the Underdark, trying to make his way in a world that fears his kind. The Player's Handbook has more info about these unusual races.[/quote:h01vd6hz]

While this sounds a bit too much like Drizzt, its prensece in a basic rules document means that WotC's stance has probably changed and that they now ''approve'' different kinds of drow in their settings. Now, since not everyone wants to play a Drizzt clone or some Lolthite, I think that it is not so unrealistic to think that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are coming back (albeit, I guess, greatly diminished in influence) and that maybe they will even be mentioned in the Player's Handbook (since it has been said that it will cover the FR, RW mythology and GH pantheons).[/quote:h01vd6hz]

The PHB deity list doesn't include Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, but then they mostly named greater/intermediate deities (elves and drow only get Corellon/Hanali Celanil/Sehanine/Aerdrie Faenya/Lolth EDIT: no they get Corellon, Lolth, Sehanine, Rillfane Rallathil and Deep Sashelas). On the plus side, many formerly dead deities have resurfaced, like Myrkul/Bhaal/Helm/Tyr/Leira/Deneir/Azuth/Finder/Savras and others. Basically, almost every removed god has been restored but Velsharoon and Ibrandul, and even they have presence in the sundering novels/adventures (Velsharoon still has power in ncromantic rituals, Ibrandul ha a chosen, so maybe they just weren't included in the list, which has been said to not be complete, like many known alive deities -Sharess, Lurue for example-); also Asmodeus is no longer a deity, they are really reverting to 2-3e. This makes me believe that there's still hope for the two siblings.
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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Irennan »

I've received the following answer from Ed himself. My question wasn't about Eilistraee in 5e FR, but rather in his own Realms-

[quote:ltd806lc]Greetings Mr. Greenwood.

I was wondering if you could answer a question about my favorite among your creations: Eilistraee, a goddess whom I've always held very dear since I first read about her.
I know that you introduced her into the Realms under commission by TSR, but I'd be happy to know if she has a place in your campaign and if she was involved in any of the adventures that took place at your table.

Thanks for your time and -of course- for your work.

Tommaso.[/quote:ltd806lc]

[quote:ltd806lc]Hi, Tommaso. You're very welcome!
Yes, Eilistraee is part of the "home" Realms campaign and has appeared "onstage" and by dream-vision and manifestation in Realmsplay. At the writing of (the first) DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, I was asked to create a deity for "good" drow for the game, and used the opportunity to make official the Dark Dancer female drow goddess I'd already created for my own use.
And, oh yes: Eilistraee lives!
:}
Ed[/quote:ltd806lc]

Reading this, especially the last bit, made me [i:ltd806lc]happy[/i:ltd806lc].
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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

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Clearly a good indicator of what the future might hold.
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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Irennan »

Yeah, it was reassuring -that last bit in particular-, especially because it was spontaneous, as I didn't even ask about Eilistraee in the published Realms.

Lets just hope WotC doesn't go ''LOLNOPE'' once again.
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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Irennan »

[quote="Irennan":fwrd5w7i]

[quote:fwrd5w7i]Hi, Tommaso. You're very welcome!
Yes, Eilistraee is part of the "home" Realms campaign and has appeared "onstage" and by dream-vision and manifestation in Realmsplay. At the writing of (the first) DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, I was asked to create a deity for "good" drow for the game, and used the opportunity to make official the Dark Dancer female drow goddess I'd already created for my own use.
And, oh yes: Eilistraee lives!
:}
Ed[/quote:fwrd5w7i]
[/quote:fwrd5w7i]

This also goes in the face of all the people who like to say ''hurr durr, Eilistraee is an abomination created to appease Drizzt fanboys/girls''. While Drizzt may have led TSR to ask for a goodly drow goddess, Eilistraee has been part of the Realms since the beginning.
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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Shir'le E. Illios »

[quote="Irennan":19q1fuya]Reading this, especially the last bit, made me [i:19q1fuya]happy[/i:19q1fuya].[/quote:19q1fuya]
Indeed, that's very nice to read. Makes me feel that Ed is one of us. :)


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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Irennan »

He is one of us -so to speak-, since Eilistraee is his own creation and integral part of his world.

According to what we have been told, Ed was given large room and freedom in designing the 5e FR and -judging by the huge quantity of lore he's been writing recently- it seems that he actually is the one at the helm, this time. So maybe -with all the deities returning (even [i:2s6wt08i]very[/i:2s6wt08i] minor ones, like Finder/Ibrandul, or old ones, like Leira)- that ''Oh yes: Eilistraee lives!'' could be a not so veiled hint for what's coming :D
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