Philosophy and You

[Narsia Ny'Dhun]

[quote="Alak Xiltyn":ak5h0p8v]Contrary to popular belief the Romans did not follow the Greek Gods; this is most easily seen in the contrast between Mars and Ares. Mars was god of war, an honorable warrior and all around bad ass, Ares was god of slaughter, and a coward who routinely got his face stomped by mortals.[/quote:ak5h0p8v]

It amuses me that you would bring that up when I've been reading the Rick Riordan books, which depicts the Greek and Roman gods as being different aspects of the same deity. And your evaluation of Ares couldn't be more accurate to how he's described in those books, being an egocentric bully who, indeed, gets face stomped by a mortal, then proceeds to run away like a little kid when he might find himself in some sort of trouble.

Has nothing to do with this thread, but that's what you made me think of...so there.

[Delvaro]

I'm not really religious, not at all i think. I live for 15 years in Israel, where 3 religions clash (Christianity, Judaism and Muslim) and i've been living side by side with many people of these faiths, and i've seen the good and bad of them.

It's all nice that people want to believe that there is something higher than us that gave us life and a reason to live (whatever that reason may be) and i never told anyone that they shouldnt or should believe in anything, its a choise of the individual. Religion is just not for myself, i've just seen many, too many, stupid conflicts, and big conflicts, caused on behalf of religion. Maynly, the Jihad the muslims usualy announced and suicide bombers (which i despise because they use religion as a tool of suicide bombing. Promising great riches in the afterlife, which we cant know if they recieve, if there even is an afterlife).

Its just not for me, and i once got the shit beaten out of me by a large gang of jew young people who were going home from the church (it was a mourning day, everything was closed and stuff) and they just stumbled upon me and attacked because, as they said, 'I'm a faithless SOB'.

What's saddest though, is that many people are using religion to advance their own goals. Like the whole jew-muslim conflict. i doubt that now, after all these years there is something religious about it.

As for Stalin. He was a mean son of a bitch (Actually, that is true, his mother was a prostitute, so i've heard). My grandmother lived in his day, and though she was young at that time she remembers a lot. People used to just 'dissapear' if they so much as said the wrong word, doubted the the leadership ot expressed their opinions aloud. It was a horrible time back then, people used to be just shot if they so much as hinted at being from another country and there was a law back in the 50's that stated 'any non-USSR citizen is to be shot after 24 hours upon discovering' Now tell me if it isnt horrible. Lenin is a harmless lamb compared to the bloody monster that Stalin was.

[Aylstra Illianniis]

And yet BOTH have been revered as national patriots and heroes at one time or another. Says a little something about the country, eh?

[Delvaro]

Heh, do you know what would've happened if someone said otherwise? its another reason why people dissapeared. The KGB just walked into your apartment, took you in the middle of the night and no one ever heard of ye anymore. That's how it was.

Right now, people are trying to forget and the commies are not that popular anymore. Right now people just laugh at their futile attempt at gathering supportest.

[Aylstra Illianniis]

I was referring more to the fact that there wereso many statues built to "canonize" them, as it were, as if they were great heroes and saitns. My opinion (take it as you will) is that they simply had incredibly huge egos...

[Delvaro]

That is very, very true. You need a massive ego in order to make people go out in the middle of the night and erect your statues while no one sees them!

Thats also true and it brings forth a funny story.

One such crew had to erect a statue of Lenin. They did so but during the process something got messed up, so instead of a statue of Lenin where he extends his hand to the people, they got a statue of Lenin extending his hat to the people. Needless to say, people did see that. and they laughed so hard.

[Shir'le E. Illios]

I hope that I won't offend anyone with this (and perhaps it would be better in the "On Promoting Joy" forum), but with all the talk of theology and such here I thought it might be 'relevant' to share...

[url=http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm:tcsg726w]Hundreds of Proofs of God’s Existence[/url:tcsg726w]

On the subject matter itself, all I can say that I don't know whether God (or any other deity or such) exists or not. I'm not wise enough to say either way.

Sometimes, in a humorous mood, I tend to think to myself "I believe in Eilistraee, who I know doesn't exist, as such my 'faith' has a leg up over every other faith." But then while I really like Eilistraee as a fictional character, I couldn't honestly say that she represents my 'faith'.


Love -x-x-x-

Shir'le

[Delvaro]

That makes me think. AS far as we know, God has no known physical form, and many treat him as a fictional entity, sort of like santa clause (only on a much, MUCH bigger scale. i hope i dont offend anyone with this metaphor, if i did, i apologise in advance). I believe in believing in what you want. Heck i had a friend who believed in the Norse pantheon! And i mean like really believed in them, like knowing all the correct riligious rituals and prayers, he took it seriously and i thought it was kind of awesome to tell the truth.

I never told anyone in what to believe, nor will i ever say such a thing. i belive in the right of choise. You want to believe in god, sure, belive in him, i have nothing against him or his believers, whether he exists or not. You want to believe in Eilistraee, Corellon or Lolth? Fine, no problems from me, since i really dont see any much difference between God and these deities. All of them have no physical evidence that they exist, other than books.

Once again, if i offended someone, i apologise in advance. I know on my own flesh that some people take such things to heart.

[Aylstra Illianniis]

You have a friend who follows the Norse gods? How awesome is THAT?! Well, being Wiccan myself, I acknowledge their (possible) existence, thou I do not actually follow them myself- I'm more of a Celtic/Greek pantheon girl, myself.

Shir'le, I think it's wonderful that you feel that way, and perhaps you could think of her as being another name/aspect of one of the RL deities of the moon, as in so many ancient traditions. Artemis, Diana, and many others have all been associated with the moon and various of her other "domains".

I fully believe in the truth of ALL faiths, insomuch as that I believe that the universe was not created by one god alone. Perhaps, in the very beginning, they all made their own contributions to the world we live in, but over time some have taken more credit than they deserved, leaving others to simply fade from memory. At least, that would explain why there have been so many different deities over time, and why some faiths have all but died out. But that is just my own theory, take it as you will.

[Delvaro]

Yes, my friend spent almost two years learning everything he could about the deities, from books, internet and whatever else he could find. he's quite well versed in that area and is quite fun listening to him while he speaks of some Norse lore or some tales about heroes and gods.

I think that the world would've been so much more interesting if the old religions wouldnt have died out or forgotten, like the Norse, Greek and Roman ones. I know that in essence, much of these gods are one and the same in their roles and other things, the only difference being their names but it only adds to the charm! Every pantheon has their own tales, their own heroes and what not!

I say, considering how many deities we had over the course of our history, that there is nothing wrong believing in a 'fictional' deity like Eilistraee, Selune or Corellon, since in truth, all the other pantheons in RL are as much fictional as the ones in faerun. We dont have any kind of physical evidence (in our modern times) that God exists, or any of the other now-anciant deities. Believe what you want, nothing wrong in that.

[Narsia Ny'Dhun]

The way I see it, one person's personification of the divine does not have to be separate or indistinct from all the rest. I believe in humanity, in our individual pickiness, imposes onto our construct of god the traits we feel it should have, traits such as a human personality or a definitive human form complete with gender. I've always felt that pantheons were the same as this concept, but on a much broader scale. We'll take the Norse gods as an example. The ancient Vikings had a very particular image of who Odin was, the noble warrior father of the universe. Their image of him left little to no room for the attributes of a feminine god who was gentler and perhaps more loving and merciful, that's what they had Frigg for, right?

It's an answer to the desire to humanize one's gods and individualize them according to one's personal desires. Such as a god of war, a god of architecture, of fertility who makes the flowers bloom. To a society like the Norse people, one god with all of these traits simply would not do. Their warrior patron being responsible for the fertility of their wives would...simply be unthinkable, wouldn't it? So they needed to individualize the gods, give them specific roles just as their mortal worshipers did in their own communities.

So there's really no difference between believing in one god or a whole community of them. It's a matter of what the people of the culture make of it.

I've always said that if there are such things as blessings given to us by the great Uncaused Cause, then diversity is among the greatest of them, which is why I love learning what other people believe, including atheists. Because even atheists believe in something, even if it's just living life to the fullest every day because we might not get another shot at it. We're at a point in our global society that diversity is as strong as ever.

I also think it's worth mentioning that I think Shir'le's point was not that she believed in a fictional deity, so much as what that deity stood for. Beauty, generosity toward the weary traveler, standing up for those who cannot stand for themselves. It appeals to the good in people, just as the concepts of less...kind deities tends (at least in my experience with people) to appeal to those who have a selfish or bitter streak to begin with, who like the concept of being allowed to be themselves without the judgment of their so-called moral betters.

As to that list, I am not offended by any of those. I will say that I disagree with a lot of them, though. The Moral Argument mostly. I don't find it offensive so much as I just outright disagree with it and consider it to be...for lack of a better word, ignorant. I know several atheists who, while very bitter about the idea of religion and often immature when talking about it, are some of the most morally upright people I have ever met. If anything, I feel that the devout believers of many organized religions tend to be the immoral ones, but that is due to simple zealotry. Taking their 'literal word of god' a little too literally.

[Delvaro]

Indeed! That is very true. Right now, diversity is very sought after as far as i can see. I love diversity myself. I think that if there was no diversity in the world, our lives wouldve been awfully dull. Thats why i love all these pantheons, the diversity! So many gods, each one having slightly different personality and tale is just beautiful in my opinion. No offense, but the three religions that believe in a single god (muslims, jews and christians) are rather dull in my eyes. Same god in effect, the only difference are the prophets and other things. Even some cataclysms caused by the gods are the same!

From what i know, pretty much every pantheon had a god for every thing in nature the people couldnt explain. Did they know scientifically why the sun rose every morning? Not really, though there were people who theorised that the sun was just a burning ball that spun around the land, the common belief was that guy with the chariot who pulled the sun. Why the trees grew, why there were seasons like winter and spring and other things like that. for almsot every thing such as these, which couldnt be fully explained, they had a god.

For the Nose ones, they had the god of war, or Loki, who was the god of mischief. These two are more...human than some others. They sort of represent some part of the human nature, like trickery and warring.

[Narsia Ny'Dhun]

And yet, those big three still find answers to the problem of diversity by deifying the servants or adversaries of their one god. Powerful archangels who might as well be gods themselves. Tricky tricky boys.

[Delvaro]

Tricky indeed. Thats an understatement.

[Aylstra Illianniis]

I think you hit the nail on the head, Delvaro. I've always been fascinated by the stories and personalities of the ancient deities, which might be one reason I was attracted to them in faith in the first place. Something in that more primal and personal nature of them spoke to me in ways that more"conventional" religions never did. To me, it is far easier to believe in a god or gods that is flawed and imperfect, because the universe itself is not perfect, and neither is humanity. Perhaps it is the statement in Genesis that man was created in God's image that always bothered me most. If that was true, then why are we so completely UN-like Him?!

The simple answer, for me at least, has always been that perhaps He is not as perfect as he has always been portrayed. Which in turn opens up the speculation that he is not what he seems to be at all. A random thought here, but wouldn't it be ironic if it turned out after all this time that we were listening to His adversary all along? Just something to chew on....