Philosophy and You

[Aylstra Illianniis]

Oh, no, I didn't mean to say that I dissect it. Mostly I just point out things that they tend to miss in the text, or show them how inaccuracies have crept in from translations. ("Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", anyone? Used to be a different word in Hebrew, that meant "poisoner". One stinking lettter changes, and we get the inquisition...) Most people look at me like I'm crazy when I tell them that the Bible actually talks about dragons. The Laviathan inJob is a good description of one, in spite of the fact that most scholars tend to pass it off as a crocodile. Since WHEN do crocs breath steam and smoke, and have hides tougher than metal spears?! It's stuff like that, mostly. And, yeah, I was aware of why that law was written back then. I just get annoyed by people who are so stuck in the same old interpretations of things, and blindly listen to what they are told rather than learn something for themselves.

I've been accused of believing in fairy tales, (I DO believe in fairies, actually- Even seen a few...) worshipping the devil, (can't worship something you don't believe in) and just being a hippie. Don't mind the last so much- we could ALL stand to remember a little of what the hippie movement stood for. Love, peace, and respect for the Earth. Funny, but those are the same basic tenets of Wicca. Hmm, maybe I AM a bit of a hippie!

[Narsia Ny'Dhun]

I've heard Buddha and Jesus described as the greatest hippies ever to live. So, if that helps you be a little prouder of the title...

That being said, I have a great respect for nature myself. My fondest memories are of my childhood when I would go camping and just be surrounded by trees and the utterly abundant life there is to find. It's a life changing experience, I think, to just spend a week in the woods. Maybe not roughing it, but be there anyway. It makes me pretty sad that I haven't been back there in almost ten years.

Really, if respect for that kind of beauty was what the movement was about then call me a hippie and I'll wear it with pride.

[veraka]

Ok, the moment I read that Jesus and Buddha were hippies, I'm in, lol.

Oh and Alystra, Narsia, you just had to mention nature to me,
First off: [img:339kgipo]http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs5/i/2005/1 ... _OMFUG.jpg[/img:339kgipo]

I think that sums it up, and if we [b:339kgipo]really[/b:339kgipo] tick off mother nature, we ahhh, she gets [b:339kgipo]real[/b:339kgipo] bitchy with us.
[img:339kgipo]http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs44/i/2009/ ... zralei.jpg[/img:339kgipo]

And I got plenty more where that came from, lol. Oh and for old times sake, my ranger friend is now afraid of these little guys; of course, I love the Commando [url=http://veraka.deviantart.com/favourites ... 0:339kgipo]Penguins[/url:339kgipo] anyways . . . ssoo.

[Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar]

hmmm, where to begin.
i dont like to classify myself as 'such' or 'such' (boxes are claustrophobic). the idea of Xian (christian) today in use is not the same anymore. so i do not use the term. but I am a follower of the Creator's Son (Yeshua/Jesus).
i was not raised as anything (socipathic dad, not my DNA donator). but i came to my decision based on the evidence and searching out.
now i dont force my beliefs, wont force one to accept. if one doesnt accept, then they have the right to that. but i do share and will try to answer questions. I do listen and enjoy hearing of others beliefs, even learning of them.

but in answer of some of the mentioned thoughts, i agree leviathan was a dragon! (im glad too b/c i love dragons lol) and i believe they existed and may possible still exist. dragons can breath fire, there's a beetle that shoots a jet of fire out his butt. behometh is likely a long neck dinosaur.

but yes, many of Xians have misunderstood, misinterpreted and twisted the text of the Tanak (or OT most known by) and used it to justify wrongs- one thing that really urks me. i should know, the settlers came over to America and tried to make my people become white....
yes much evil had been done in the name of God, and i will say- their idiots. and He prolly is not happy that His name gets smeared like that because of stupidity!
one needs to understand what the author of the text meant (authorial intent) and why it was given to them.
the Law reflects the character of the Lawgiver.

[Alak Xiltyn]

[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":p85u5b4p] I've spent a large part of my life looking for a way to justify it in the eyes of my skeptical peers who have in the past called me delusional for living in a fantasy world, unprovoked, I might add. Simply holding a world view other than their own is often enough to set an atheist off, as surely as any religious zealot in the reverse. [/quote:p85u5b4p]

You shouldn't need to justify your beliefs unless you want to; anyone who tells you otherwise isn't worthy of your respect. If they're like me and are simply trying to understand what you believe and why then it's different but they should still respect your beliefs.

[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":p85u5b4p] The truth of the matter is that in the face of scientific fact, the majority of humanity's faith is easily disproved by science. [/quote:p85u5b4p]

Did you know that the big bang theory was originally theorized by a Catholic Priest? Also calling it a bang is a bit of a misnomer; there was no medium for sound to travel through and where you to go back in time and view the start of the universe it would appear as a bright flash of [b:p85u5b4p][i:p85u5b4p]light[/i:p85u5b4p][/b:p85u5b4p] with absolutely no sound.

I've always embraced science and "reason" as tools of my faith, even when I was a left of mainstream Christian. Science can tell you how the universe appears to work, what it can't tell you is WHY the universe works, there is absolutely no reason for the universe to obey any laws at all, never mind the rather complex laws of Physics.

[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":p85u5b4p] This search has been a long and miserable one for me that's resurrected fears about what will happen to me when I die, and what has already become of those I have lost. I have nightmares about it and have frequent bouts with depression because of it. [/quote:p85u5b4p]

I am very sorry to hear that and I suppose I should bare that in mind when discussing religion in the future. I'm very open about my beliefs for two reasons: first I LOVE learning about other faiths and second I have a passionate love of infuriating zealots; theist and atheist alike. I've never lost any sleep over the thought of dying so it makes it hard for me to understand why people get so squirmy over the idea.

I had my mortality impressed upon me at an early age; my oldest memory is of a doctor telling my mother I'd be dead within the hour, followed shortly there after by "He has pneumonia, it's unlikely that he'll live through the week." Hearing that tends to have a profound impact on a 3 year old. It only got better from there, "He may not live to see 5" followed by "He'll need a cane by the time he's 15 and a wheel chair by the time he's 25." and most recently: "You'll likely have stomach cancer by the time you're 20."

In short: death and other unpleasent fates are old news to me, I'm 25, my stomach is fine and I went for a run this morning. Death has always been something that happens for me, it'll take me when it takes me and there isn't a damn thing I can do about it, same with everyone else. What I CAN do is laugh and smile and tell my loved ones just how much I love them while living as good a life as I can, reguardless of what comes after.


[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":p85u5b4p] My only wish is for people to be happy, I care about nothing else, and thinking about the things I have thought of in such depth brings nothing but misery. The sad, horrible reality is that there's only one way to find out. Die, and then you'll know. And if you don't, you won't know it anyway. Scary thought, one that will haunt me on a very personal level until I die. [\quote]

That's a noble sentiment and one that, from what I've seen of you, you've done a fine job of living up to. You're absolutely right, we don't know until we're dead, all we can do is live as well as we can and hope for the best. I hope you don't lose any more sleep over the thought of dying, there is nothing any of us can do about it so it's really not worth fretting over. Besides living forever sounds boring to me, I'd like 2-3 centuries but I'll take what I get.

[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":p85u5b4p] Sharing it with others creates religion, and we all know what's become of that over our history. [/quote:p85u5b4p]

Hey now I think the Buddha did a fine job of assembling the ethical ideals of his religion. How many violent Buddhists have you heard of? Buddhist crusades? Buddhist witch hunts? All religions have their wackos but Buddhism seems to have the least. True a LOT of Buddhist beliefs make me want to bash my head against a wall but thats not my point.

The best quote I've ever heard on religion is that "Faith is not what the lessons bring to the people. It's the mistake the people bring to the lessons." Every genuine faith I've ever heard of shares ideals of kindness and virtue, it's the (mis)interpretations by the people that cause problems.

[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":p85u5b4p] In parting I ask you consider the words of the Buddha, who said, "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."[/quote:p85u5b4p]

"Hold on, my common sense is tingling." - Deadpool
Common sense, so rare it's a friggen super power.

[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":p85u5b4p]
One could challenge that. Just because one believes that they exist doesn't make it so. (It could be argued that the idea that one needs to exist to be able to think and have ideas and be able to doubt is just a supposition that can't be proven.)

But I'm just pointing that out because whenever someone claims something as absolute and unchallengeable my first reaction is to challenge it. [/quote:p85u5b4p]

True if you believe that the universe is completely subjective. However if you're a Dualist (like me) or a Materialist then you end up with a paradox because if there is nothing to answer the question then there is nothing to ask it... oh that and my entire ethical system breaks down. If their is no self then it's unlikely that their are other "people" and there is absolutely no reason why I shouldn't go on a murder spree and go out in a hail of gun fire because no one exists and it doesn't matter anyway.

There are better, more thorough refutations by much smarter people than me (Soren Kierkegaard to name one) but since some of what they go into makes MY head hurt and only makes the barest of sense to me I'll not use their points. (Never use an argument you don't fully comprehend)

[quote="Aylstra Illianniis":p85u5b4p] Just why DOES the judeo-christian god feel the need to be the ONLY one worshipped? [/quote:p85u5b4p]

Does He? Read the first commandment a little closer. "Thou shalt have no other gods [b:p85u5b4p][i:p85u5b4p]before[/i:p85u5b4p][/b:p85u5b4p] me." This can be taken to mean that worshiping other gods is fine so long as God is given president. Through the sheer about of fire in the OT and one can make a solid argument that Yahwe is infact the god of fire and the creator god, meaning that their ARE other gods, simply that Yahwe is the one that made us and that He should be given our love first.

Is any of that actually the case? I have no idea, I said before my religious beliefs begin and end with the assertion that the universe was created. I think the creator may have used religion to get the core ideals of what it wants for us to our ears and that everything else is our own influence; a good arguement for this is that when you strip away the religious trappings from Christianity what you get is Buddhism with a Hebrew accent.

[quote="Bergeth'fryn":p85u5b4p]ok, is it torch and pitchfork time then? hahaha [/quote:p85u5b4p]

"Suffer not a witch to live!!!" (btw thats actually a mistranslation from Hebrew to Greek and means something else entirely)

The last belief I held as a "true" Christian (I DO still sort of identify as Christian in a weird sort of way) was that God is exactly what he claims to be and that the rather radical shift in mentality from the OT to the Gospels was due to the growing maturity of Humanity, like a parent with a child; before a child learns language do you ask it to put down the scissors or do you take them away while saying "no"?

As to the "Evil" of satan I've always seen it like this: If God is the loving compassionate figure God claims to be then God would forgive EVERYONE for EVERYTHING they've ever done wrong. Therefore Satan exists because HUMANITY demands it. Think of Satan as a prosecuting attorney rather than a horrible demon waiting to gnaw on your soul, Satan's job is to see to it that the people like Hitler get their just rewards.

My Pastor hated that idea because he felt I was trying to downplay the dangers of Satan but from my point of view it had the opposite effect; it makes the trials and temptations we go through all the more important because we can never say "The Devil made me do it." because you did it on your own.


[quote="Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar":p85u5b4p]hmmm, where to begin.
i dont like to classify myself as 'such' or 'such' (boxes are claustrophobic). [/quote:p85u5b4p]

I didn't put myself in a box, I tripped over it and my ideas just happened to fit into it rather nicely! lol


[quote="Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar":p85u5b4p] now i dont, wont force my beliefs, wont force one to accept. if one doesnt accept, then they have the right to that. but i do share and will try to answer questions. I do listen and enjoy hearing of others beliefs, even learning of them. [/quote:p85u5b4p]

I was under the impression that was the whole point of this thread.

[quote="Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar":p85u5b4p] One thing that really urks me. i should know, the settlers came over to America and tried to make my people become white....[/quote:p85u5b4p][/quote:p85u5b4p]

My only ancestors who west of the Appalachian mountains prior to the massacre at Wounded Knee were Lakota (Great great great grandmother), my Direct paternal ancestors were too busy being starved to death in a nation where the hardest hit areas were still producing enough food to feed themselves twice over to oppress anyone and my maternal ancestors only left Germany because Hitler came to power; we're fairly certain my great grandmother was Jewish, that or they were smart enough to know that the s was about to hit the f and left.

I'd love to hear more about your belief, such as why you use the terms you use like xian for christian. I'm guessing from the Greek abbreviation for christos which was PX bit I'd rather ask and look like an idiot than assume and be wrong.

Holy crap I wrote a novel!

[Aylstra Illianniis]

Alak wrote:

Read the first commandment a little closer. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." This can be taken to mean that worshiping other gods is fine so long as God is given president.


Heh, yeah, this was precisely what I was talking about. Unfortunately, most denominations tend to interpret this to mean that one should have ONLY one God, and since much of the OT is spent denouncing other gods as false, they have sort of turned it into a "There can be only one!" argument. I find it a little hard to swallow that he would be okay with people worshiping other gods when he seems to have been slaughtering anyone of HIS people who did so, along with the heathens of other nations. It's almost as if the God of the OT and NT are two separate beings, from the seemingly drastic change in between.

Hmm, Buddism with a Hebrew accent. I like that!!

[Alak Xiltyn]

[quote="Aylstra Illianniis":35a6vy35] It's almost as if the God of the OT and NT are two separate beings, from the seemingly drastic change in between. [/quote:35a6vy35]

Yeah I touched on that topic... somewhere in that massive block of text -_-'

Okay, found it, right after my reply to you.

[Narsia Ny'Dhun]

I'm actually rather pleased with your enormous post, Alak dear. Your genuine interest in this topic and what everyone has had to say is heartening and brings me a smile.

[Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar]

[quote="Alak Xiltyn":cvafnuly]
I'd love to hear more about your belief, such as why you use the terms you use like xian for christian. I'm guessing from the Greek abbreviation for christos which was PX ![/quote:cvafnuly]

yeah, short hand.
im lazy in my writing, clearly seen by my poor writting skills. tho the professer says if u understand laziness u can understand language....still waiting for that understanding (learning hebrew).

and for translating and correct interpretation, one also needs to view the textual/literary structures as well as the book as a whole for proper understanding.

for humor, did yall know the Tanak has precedent for men doin the dishes.
"I will wipe Jerusalem as a [b:cvafnuly]man [/b:cvafnuly]wipes a dish..."

[Aylstra Illianniis]

Ha! I KNEW I should have had my mate doin them all this time!!! Kidding. Zarae, you hit it spot-on, there. It's just frustrating that most people never look beyond the literal translations when they interpret that stuff. And IMHO, Egypt DID NOT get hit by the hand of God ten times when Moses wanted his people freed- they were just having a REALLY bad year. Most of those "miracles" have been shown to be natural phenomenon. Blood in rivers= red ageal bloom! My guess is that there was some drastic climate change going on. Hmm.... Climate change.....

[Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar]

lol. i do the dishes b/c my husband does the cooking. im a bad cook!

i agree and disagree... and we can still all get along....cookies for all...(so, whose providing them? ok i just really want something sweet, so my mind is a bit random at the moment.)

He can and does use nature and natural phenomenon. He created it, why not. so its totally plausible He used them on egypt. but each plague is a blow to an egypt deity. He shows his power, sovernty, that he is God and such over egypt.

ooo speakin of dragons, did anyone see that animal planet special about dragons, a few yrs ago i think.

[Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar]

alright philosophical questions:
# Is there another word for synonym?
# What would a chair look like if your knees bent the other way?
OK, so what's the speed of dark?
Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?

[Aylstra Illianniis]

As a matter of fact, I have that special on dvd. Loved it. Makes for some interesting speculation.

[Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar]

didnt agree with everything presented, but it was awesome! (im biased, i love animals)
tho i imagine leviathan more like the chinese dragon or maybe Nessie (loch ness monster's name right?) since the hebrew name is derived from 'twisting one.'

and to use platnium to mix with hydrogen (i think it was) and allow lift and fire ejection...who cool is that idea!

(edited. ))

[Inriiaynrae Jaelre]

u forgot to finish your last statement...

and did i hear cookies?


anyway, heres one:
why do the some of the best tasting foods tend to be the worst for you?