Philosophy and You

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Alak Xiltyn
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Post by Alak Xiltyn »

[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":kr7495fd] I'm actually rather pleased with your enormous post, Alak dear. Your genuine interest in this topic and what everyone has had to say is heartening and brings me a smile. [/quote:kr7495fd]

Thanks! I'm glad to hear we could make you smile, there aren't enough of those in the world these days.

[quote="Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar":kr7495fd] yeah, short hand.
im lazy in my writing, clearly seen by my poor writting skills. tho the professer says if u understand laziness u can understand language....still waiting for that understanding (learning hebrew). [/quote:kr7495fd]

My written grammar is awful. I might have to read something you've typed a couple of times to get your meaning but a friend of mine can't read anything I've written without wanting to scratch out his own eyes (he's a grammar Nazi), so I have ZERO room to criticize your writing skills. By the way, it's great to hear you're learning Hebrew; it seems like an interesting language.

Going back to your original post, it sounds like you came to your current beliefs in roughly the same manner I did; a bit of listening, some reading and a whole lot of soul searching. Am I right? I may have gone a bit more indepth; spent a few days in a Buddhist monastery, having coffee every afternoon for a month with a Rabbi and an Imam and going to a series of atheist lectures, but not everyone is psychotic in the same way I am.

[quote="Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar":kr7495fd] for humor, did yall know the Tanak has precedent for men doin the dishes.
"I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipes a dish..." [/quote:kr7495fd]

Meh, the only time "gender roles" have actually mattered was in hunter-gatherer societies; and even then for COMPLETELY different reasons than you might think. In a time when humanity was hunting Mammoth and competing with predators that didn't need special tools to kill them, hunting was ridiculously dangerous and was done by the men NOT because they were better suited for it but because they were genetically expendable. A tribe can more easily avoid inbreeding with a large population of females and a small population of males than with the opposite. So remember guys; you can always be replaced.

[quote:kr7495fd]Most of those "miracles" have been shown to be natural phenomenon.[/quote:kr7495fd]

Ah "miracles" yet another reason I'm a Deist. Any omnipotent being worth it's salt would know exactly when it needed a series of completely natural events to occur in just the right place for the people looking on to call them miracles without actually needing to directly intervene.

Personally I don't believe in "miracles." At least not in the conventional sense. I think humanity has the concept of divinity all wrong and that Science (Quantum Physics to be specific) is getting closer to getting it right than any religion ever has. My idea is that the creator is in fact a quantum being; a creature that exists wholly apart from time and space and who set the universe in motion.

What would such a being be when compared to a human? How could a being that lives in the past, present and future all at once be anything less than a god by contrast? A being that was not created and will not cease to be as when you make the laws of Physics you make physics your bitch.

Why would such a being create the world in the first place? My theory: reproduction. My idea is that all sapient beings have a dual nature; The transient material and the quantum, on is born, grows, lives and dies while the other is eternal, both halves are part of a single whole until the time comes for them to be seperated. If the quantum "soul" is ready to be raised up as a wholly quantum being then it is, if not it "goes back in the oven" until it's ready.

Yes I know that sounds like the love child of Science and Christanity with The Buddha as it's godparent but it would explain a LOT.

[quote="Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar":kr7495fd]alright philosophical questions:
# Is there another word for synonym?
# What would a chair look like if your knees bent the other way?
OK, so what's the speed of dark?
Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?[/quote:kr7495fd]

1. nope
2. higher and not as deep with widely spaced legs.
3. Quantum, it's everywhen (not everywhere) light is not
4. Yes, it's a world where all thought become reality... it's a very... very... VERY scary place.

[quote="Inriiaynrae Jaelre":kr7495fd] anyway, heres one:
why do the some of the best tasting foods tend to be the worst for you? [/quote:kr7495fd]
"Let us read, and let us dance; these two amusements will never do any harm to the world." - Voltaire
Aylstra Illianniis
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Post by Aylstra Illianniis »

@ Inrii: That's to off-set the calories with taste, my dear! :p I mean, really- if you're going to eat something that's fattening, then it darn well BETTER be worth it....


Alak: Well, if you think about it, humans are quantum beings, too. Our atomic particles have existed since the beginning of the universe, in some form or other, so in that sense we are ALL "eternal" beings. Small comfort, maybe, but I like to think that someday, my atoms will become part of a new star. Lovely thought, isn't it?

And Narsia, perhaps that thought will help you sleep better at night, knowing that at you would continue to exist in at least some form..... It's not an "afterlife" as most people would view it, but it's better than nothing.
By the Dark Maiden''s grace do we meet. May she guide and protect us.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

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veraka
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Post by veraka »

Well after Alak's twin Novels-in-post format, I first have to say my hat's off to the guy; excellent job and well-played. :)
and now onto my post.

[quote="Alak":3foun172]As to the "Evil" of Satan I've always seen it like this: If God is the loving compassionate figure God claims to be then God would forgive EVERYONE for EVERYTHING they've ever done wrong. Therefore Satan exists because HUMANITY demands it. Think of Satan as a prosecuting attorney rather than a horrible demon waiting to gnaw on your soul, Satan's job is to see to it that the people like Hitler get their just rewards. [/quote:3foun172]

To this I have to say that I could somewhat agree. My way of looking at this is simple.
I've heard that Satan was once an Archangel, powerful as Micheal, and loved God himself.
The reason that he fell, became the devil was due to our (humans) creation. When God created humanity in Genesis, he said to we, as humans, would be placed before the angels of heaven, and that the angels of heaven were supposed to assist us humans.
Well Satan, didn't exactly like that and as such, argued with God about this, saying that the angels of heaven should be placed first on the big man's priory list.
God said no and that was when Satan fell, and became the Devil.

So, to make a long story short, it was due to our (humans) creation that the Devil is what and where he is. This is, of course, all just my personal opinions and beliefs.

[quote="Alak":3foun172]
[quote="Zarae Zyne":3foun172]
One thing that really urks me. i should know, the settlers came over to America and tried to make my people become white....[/quote:3foun172]


My only ancestors who west of the Appalachian mountains prior to the massacre at Wounded Knee were Lakota (Great great great grandmother), my Direct paternal ancestors were too busy being starved to death in a nation where the hardest hit areas were still producing enough food to feed themselves twice over to oppress anyone and my maternal ancestors only left Germany because Hitler came to power; we're fairly certain my great grandmother was Jewish, that or they were smart enough to know that the s was about to hit the f and left.

I'd love to hear more about your belief, such as why you use the terms you use like xian for christian. I'm guessing from the Greek abbreviation for christos which was PX bit I'd rather ask and look like an idiot than assume and be wrong. [/quote:3foun172]

Wow, now I don't feel like I'm in college, I feel like I'm a preschooler surrounded by college students, lol

[quote="Zarae":3foun172]but in answer of some of the mentioned thoughts, i agree leviathan was a dragon! (im glad too b/c i love dragons lol) and i believe they existed and may possible still exist. dragons can breath fire, there's a beetle that shoots a jet of fire out his butt. behometh is likely a long neck dinosaur.
[/quote:3foun172]

I agree with Zar on this, the Leviathan was no crocodile; I mean a water-swimmer that can breathe fire in its leasier time, well that's one suped-up croc. Personally, I've always thought of the Leviathan as one of those mysteries of the world that has been left unanswered. Dragon? I can see that being true.

Oh and Zarae, yup, you're right on that beetle; the Bombardier Beetle, they be.
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Veraka

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Aylstra Illianniis
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Post by Aylstra Illianniis »

Veraka, if you look close enough, you'll find several other mythical creatures in the Bible. Revelations has a couple of dragons, too. (The one "the harlot" rides, and the seven-headed one of the Apocolypse.)
By the Dark Maiden''s grace do we meet. May she guide and protect us.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

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Bergeth'fryn
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Post by Bergeth'fryn »

Ok... how bout Nietzsche vs. Kant?
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Aylstra Illianniis
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Post by Aylstra Illianniis »

Hmmm, I "Kant" say much about either. Don't know enough about them, except for Nietzsche's (Could he PLEASE buy a vowel?!) idea that "God is dead". I've never been big into secular philosophy, myself. too many weird ideas floating around there.

When it comes to pure philosophy, I'm more in line with some of the ancient Greeks than with any so-called "modern" ideas. After all, the Greeks pretty much INVENTED the field. And I'm not really big on existential thought. It gives me a headache.... :roll:
By the Dark Maiden''s grace do we meet. May she guide and protect us.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

A link to my tales, including my Marvel hero!:
http://mickeys-tavern.com/index.php?showforum=188
Bhaern Quel
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Post by Bhaern Quel »

In many ways I tried to not reply much to this thread, maybe I still should not however am.
Some of the posters have declared themselves as Wiccans and I at best can only claim myself as Pagan. This term (Pagan) however has many definitions over the years. When the Greeks and Romans were the dominate would force building Empires, faiths like Judaism and Christianity along with Celtic belief were all called pagan religions. Once the Roman Emperor adopted Christian faith as non pagan, his successor became a Christian if I read the history correctly, worship of Zeus became (or at least started to) become a pagan religion.

Wicca is a powerful faith for those that follow it, however other beliefs are powerful faiths when it is followed. All faiths have their faults, non really answer all questions a follower might have over the years. I prefer faiths that say do no harm and live it.

The "Shall not suffer a Witch to live" being the most common quote of the Bible has been subject to translation debate. Witch might equal poisoner suffer to live equal instead of being killed cast out of tribe. I however have been involved in discussions concerning that line a few years ago and while that line might have different translations, there are other lines that mention stoning Witches to death, that it is wrong to consult fortune tellers and so on.
All in all I consider any Monotheistic faith to be hate filled because the rejection of any other religion as being good enough.
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Post by Zylys Starharvest »

[quote="Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar":26wnooug] but yes, many of Xians have misunderstood, misinterpreted and twisted the text of the Tanak (or OT most known by) and used it to justify wrongs- one thing that really urks me. i should know, the settlers came over to America and tried to make my people become white....
yes much evil had been done in the name of God, and i will say- their idiots. and He prolly is not happy that His name gets smeared like that because of stupidity!
one needs to understand what the author of the text meant (authorial intent) and why it was given to them.
the Law reflects the character of the Lawgiver.[/quote:26wnooug]

A men to that, sister! A brilliant man of God by the name of Saint Augustine once said, "Never judge a philosophy by its abuse!" ;)
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Post by Bhaern Quel »

[quote="Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar":yv03c1hj]

but yes, many of Xians have misunderstood, [/quote:yv03c1hj]

For what it is worth I object to the use of Xians in reference to the Christians.
That is like calling homosexuals fagots. The term is derogatory, with a tone of contempt. There are good Christians, as well as good people of other faiths.
Alak Xiltyn
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Post by Alak Xiltyn »

[quote="Bhaern Quel":mjs9pwvk] Once the Roman Emperor adopted Christian faith as non pagan, his successor became a Christian if I read the history correctly, worship of Zeus became (or at least started to) become a pagan religion. [/quote:mjs9pwvk]

Jupiter, actually, not Zeus. Contrary to popular belief the Romans did not follow the Greek Gods; this is most easily seen in the contrast between Mars and Ares. Mars was god of war, an honorable warrior and all around bad ass, Ares was god of slaughter, and a coward who routinely got his face stomped by mortals.

[quote="Bhaern Quel":mjs9pwvk] I prefer faiths that say do no harm and live it. [/quote:mjs9pwvk]

As you said, all faiths have their faults but it's ignorance of the real lessons of one's faith that causes problems. Most Jews I know acknowledge that the words of some very hateful men have found their way into the Torah, same with Christians and the Bible, it's always the crazies that ruin it for everyone else. I've known some very nasty and unpleasant "Wiccans" who seemed completely ignorant of the ideals of the faith they claimed to follow. My ex-girlfriend and the local Imam both told me they felt the 9/11 terrorist were in hell for what they did and that the Koran has a LOT to say about treating other faiths with respect.

Even "pagans" had their crazies, throwing debtors, slaves and such into arenas with wild animals for enjoyment was pretty much standard fare for the Romans long before they had Christians to throw to the Lions. Never mind the burial seals listing how many Christians were killed at that dead person's funeral games. EVERYONE has their crazies.

[quote="Bhaern Quel":mjs9pwvk] The "Shall not suffer a Witch to live" being the most common quote of the Bible [/quote:mjs9pwvk]

And here I was thinking "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." or "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." were more common.

The most horrible things in Christian history were NOT done to quotes from the Bible but to cries of "Deus Volt" or "God wills it!" The Crusades for Jerusalem (against Muslims and Orthodox Christians [4th crusade]), the Teutonic Knights (against "Pagans") and the Albigensian crusade (against Christians Pope Innocent III didn't like) all shared that battle cry.

The Modern world is more aware of the Crimes of Monotheist religions because they have been dominant in the west for so long that the crimes of other faiths can easily but shrugged off as myth. Worshiper's of Odin supposedly hung Christians as scarifies to Odin, there's little historical evidence but even the Norse referred to him as the God of the Gallows, so it's not unlikely that scarifies were made in such a manner.

[quote="Bhaern Quel":mjs9pwvk] All in all I consider any Monotheistic faith to be hate filled because the rejection of any other religion as being good enough.[/quote:mjs9pwvk]

I'll just refer you to Zylys post.

[quote="Bhaern Quel":mjs9pwvk]
For what it is worth I object to the use of Xians in reference to the Christians.[/quote:mjs9pwvk]

Odd I can hardly see that as being any more offensive to Christians that calling a Fraternity Brother a "frat boy" it may annoy them but it's hardly insulting. XP has been a christian symbol since Constantine's battle at the Milvian bridge, if not longer.

[quote:mjs9pwvk]When writing the name "Christ", it is quite common to abbreviate it to
X or x, representing the first letter (kai) of the Greek XPICTOC
khristos. For example, "xmas" is a common abbreviation of "Christmas".
"Xian" just means "Christian".

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the use of the
abbreviation "xian" or "xtian" for "Christian" dates back at least as
far as 1634. Before that, it was more usual to take the first two
letters of XPICTOC, and write "xpian" for "Christian". Priests would
record Christenings using the shorthand "xpen" or "xpn".

So no, it's not an insult"[/quote:mjs9pwvk]
"Let us read, and let us dance; these two amusements will never do any harm to the world." - Voltaire
Aylstra Illianniis
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Post by Aylstra Illianniis »

Aye, and even the ancient Celts (Gauls) made human sacrifices to their gods- though they mainly used condemned criminals or war captives for this purpose. Not that that makes it any better, mind you. Odin's status as "God of the gallows", however, mainly seems to have stemmed from his supposed sacrifice of himself TO himself by hanging from the Tree of Life (Yggdrasil), for eight days- and there are conflicting stories even about this. And there are so many others, but I think it's just that most of he world looks at the widespread nature of atrocities committed by monotheistic religions.

In Roman times, theirs was the faith that was most well-known and followed at least in terms of number of people supposedly under its rule. So their crimes are considered worse because it was practiced so widely. Later it was the Christians and the Muslims who were villified (in many cases rightly so) because so many people followed those beliefs and WILLINGLY committed terrible acts in the name of those faiths.

And although there is much confusion and some disagreement on the subject, the Roman gods were, in fact, much the same as those of the Greeks- though the Romans emphasized different aspects of those deities, and added a few of the gods of their other territories such as Gaul, as well. Hence Heracles becoming Hercules, and certain other similarities.

On the subject of Wiccans (and others) who are ignorant or outright opposite of their supposed ideals, the only thing I can say on that is that unfortunately, like with any belief system, there will be those who are attracted to it for reasons of "glamor", perceived means of gaining power or other desirable things over others, or just because it is the "fashionable" thing to do. Sadly, some people simply claim to belong to a faith, but do not have a clue what it actually entails. Much like Julius Ceasar only paid lip service to the Roman gods, even though he was privately an atheist.
By the Dark Maiden''s grace do we meet. May she guide and protect us.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

A link to my tales, including my Marvel hero!:
http://mickeys-tavern.com/index.php?showforum=188
Zylys Starharvest
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Post by Zylys Starharvest »

[quote="Alak Xiltyn":287gt889]As you said, all faiths have their faults but it's ignorance of the real lessons of one's faith that causes problems. Most Jews I know acknowledge that the words of some very hateful men have found their way into the Torah, same with Christians and the Bible, it's always the crazies that ruin it for everyone else. I've known some very nasty and unpleasant "Wiccans" who seemed completely ignorant of the ideals of the faith they claimed to follow. My ex-girlfriend and the local Imam both told me they felt the 9/11 terrorist were in hell for what they did and that the Koran has a LOT to say about treating other faiths with respect.

Even "pagans" had their crazies, throwing debtors, slaves and such into arenas with wild animals for enjoyment was pretty much standard fare for the Romans long before they had Christians to throw to the Lions. Never mind the burial seals listing how many Christians were killed at that dead person's funeral games. EVERYONE has their crazies.
[/quote:287gt889]

Those are some [i:287gt889]very[/i:287gt889] excellent points, Alak. I like how you flipped the coin on the perspectives, seeing as how there seemed to have been more misunderstandings as well as mild misanthropy towards specifically the Judeo-Christian faith than any other that I could see so far in this thread.

But you're absolutely right, I've also heard of the attempted retort of "You say you can't judge a philosophy by its abuse, but you can't disregard it, either." And while they're right on one hand, it just goes back to what you stated about ignorance.

Christianity specifically has been labeled a religion of hate, utter intolerance, and violence thanks to the ungodly acts of hateful, utterly intolerant, and violent people who wanted to do something for undeniably selfish and unBiblical reasons, but slapped a "God told me to" label on it to justify themselves. And unfortunately, people fell for all of it.

If the abuse of the philosophy was, in fact, valid, then Atheism - the total rejection of belief in [i:287gt889]any[/i:287gt889] deity - would also be considered immoral and inhumane, seeing as how the philosophy of Nietzsche highly influenced people like Hitler, Lenin, and Stalin - all of which were renowned Atheists. Nietzsche's ideas provided a foundation upon which Lenin and Stalin were able to build a society around the power ethics of political rationalism. And because of these men, more people have been killed in the 20th Century by their governments than by all wars combined.
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Post by Alak Xiltyn »

[quote="Zylys Starharvest":mi7atqjn]
Those are some [i:mi7atqjn]very[/i:mi7atqjn] excellent points, Alak. I like how you flipped the coin on the perspectives, seeing as how there seemed to have been more misunderstandings as well as mild misanthropy towards specifically the Judeo-Christian faith than any other that I could see so far in this thread. [/quote:mi7atqjn]

In my own private soul searching I tried to assess the various religions (and lack there of) from as objective a stand point as I could, which I think gives me a fairly unique perspective on religion.

I LOVE Buddhist ethics and Philosophy but find their religious point to be counter intuitive, I found Christianity and Judaism much the same, the core ethics are sound (heck when you get into the details of what Kosher is even that makes an odd sort of sense) it's the details I have issues with. Those 2 (or 3) faiths came closest for me to explaining things but left too many questions for me to be comfortable accepting everything they had to say, hence; Deist.

[quote="Zylys Starharvest":mi7atqjn] If the abuse of the philosophy was, in fact, valid, then Atheism - the total rejection of belief in [i:mi7atqjn]any[/i:mi7atqjn] deity - would also be considered immoral and inhumane, seeing as how the philosophy of Nietzsche highly influenced people like Hitler, Lenin, and Stalin. [/quote:mi7atqjn]

Like I said, EVERY religion (the lack of belief IS a belief) has it's crazies. Lenin was very much a man of his times and the methods he used would hardly have made people flinch 30-40 years after his death. Stalin on the other hand was a monster on a scale that puts Hitler to shame.


[quote="Aylstra Illianniis":mi7atqjn] Odin's status as "God of the gallows", however, mainly seems to have stemmed from his supposed sacrifice of himself TO himself by hanging from the Tree of Life (Yggdrasil), for eight days- and there are conflicting stories even about this.[/quote:mi7atqjn]

As well as accounts of Christians, Muslims and Slavs (mostly Slavs) being hung as sacrifices to Odin.

[quote="Aylstra Illianniis":mi7atqjn] And although there is much confusion and some disagreement on the subject, the Roman gods were, in fact, much the same as those of the Greeks [/quote:mi7atqjn]

The most likely scenario (and the one with a fair amount of evidence) is that the original Roman gods were Etruscan but that as the Romans expanded they were made over in the image of the Greek gods to give them weight and validity.

[quote="Aylstra Illianniis":mi7atqjn] there will be those who are attracted to it for reasons of "glamor", perceived means of gaining power [/quote:mi7atqjn]

My point exactly.
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Post by Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar »

[quote="Bhaern Quel":6z2xphde][quote="Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar":6z2xphde]

but yes, many of Xians have misunderstood, [/quote:6z2xphde]

For what it is worth I object to the use of Xians in reference to the Christians.
That is like calling homosexuals fagots. The term is derogatory, with a tone of contempt. There are good Christians, as well as good people of other faiths.[/quote:6z2xphde]

really? i never thought that it would be offensive...hmmmm...
i woulda guessed folks who didnt understand the X was used often in the first century. (sorta like the ichtus or fish was used). i heard people say Xmas was taking Christ outta Christmas, but that was due to ignorance. and again, i am lazy in writing, so i have alot of short hand symbols to represent words. useful when trying to keep up with a lecture. ;)

and as for derogatory names, i hate those uses for people. to me thats pure stupid/ignorance on their part. despite differences or disagreement, their still a person deserving of respect, a person created by Him.
to the Creator, life is valuable and special, especially to Him.
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Post by Zylys Starharvest »

[quote="Alak Xiltyn":34rlhhs3]it's the details I have issues with. Those 2 (or 3) faiths came closest for me to explaining things but left too many questions for me to be comfortable accepting everything they had to say, hence; Deist.[/quote:34rlhhs3]

I'm really sorry to hear that, Alak. I can definitely sympathize with the feeling of confusion or even dissatisfaction when it comes to either adopting or coping with one's personal belief/faith. I'd love to try and be of any help to you, to the best of my ability, if you have any questions or need clarification on any particular issue, especially concerning Judeo-Christianity. I know it provokes many by just the mere mentioning of it. Haha.

That applies to anyone, really. :)
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