Philosophy and You

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Bergeth'fryn
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Philosophy and You

Post by Bergeth'fryn »

Northeast Oklahoma isn't exactly teaming with intellectual discussion. I would be pleased to hear some life-views other than, "we live, we worship god, we go to heaven, unless you hate jesus, 'cuz then your goin' to hell boy!"
Back home, we used to eat those things you call nightmares.
Aylstra Illianniis
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Post by Aylstra Illianniis »

I can relate. I'm currently in B.F.E., Texas. Living with my parents- and my dad's idea of intelligent convo is talking about fixing trucks, or NASCAR. BO-ring! And when I was talking to my mom one day in the car about a you-tube video of "planetary sounds" , he thought it was "stupid crap" and kept telling me to be quiet. Mind you, I'm 33, so him even saying that at all is utterly immature and disrespectful. But it illustrates how little intellectual discussion there is around here.
By the Dark Maiden''s grace do we meet. May she guide and protect us.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

A link to my tales, including my Marvel hero!:
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Post by veraka »

Here's something I've to offer; if anyone is that bored, come here to Colorado and look both me and Drakin up; we'll keep you're intellectual conversations going for hours, given the situation.

I'm bored right now, if anyone wants to talk about something, that can hold my interest enough for me to post back a comment about it, go ahead and make it here.
In War, Justice; In Peace, Hope; In Death: Sacrifice
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Aylstra Illianniis
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Post by Aylstra Illianniis »

*Sigh* I'd love to see Colorado again. Took a trip there as a kid, and it was beautiful. The New Mexico Rockies aren't bad either. Not much to see out here but fields full of corn, cotton, or cows. I don't know why some people say that small towns are so great- there's not much to do, you have to drive at least an hour to get a lot of things (the worst- no comics here!!) and the people are all a bunch of yokels. What's so great about THAT?! Give me a decent-sized city any day of the week. Dallas would be nice- it even has the transit system so if you want to do something outside walking distance, you can. And more people means more points of view to exchange and learn from. Plus, the culture level is higher....
By the Dark Maiden''s grace do we meet. May she guide and protect us.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

A link to my tales, including my Marvel hero!:
http://mickeys-tavern.com/index.php?showforum=188
Alak Xiltyn
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Re: Philosophy and You

Post by Alak Xiltyn »

[quote="Bergeth'fryn":whxwsudc]Northeast Oklahoma isn't exactly teaming with intellectual discussion. I would be pleased to hear some life-views other than, "we live, we worship god, we go to heaven, unless you hate jesus, 'cuz then your goin' to hell boy!"[/quote:whxwsudc]

Life views beyond the whitebread eh? As a deist who has dated a Muslim, whose best friend is Buddhist, was raised a German Lutheran and is 4 classes away from a B.A. in Philosophy I suppose I MIGHT be able to supply a different view.

Your initial post suggests you want to hear different religious views so I guess I'll start there. Like I said I'm a Deist; for those unfamiliar with the concept it all boils down to the idea that the universe was created and that beyond this assertion we simply CANNOT know. This solves a number of ethical problems most Theologies in the it removes the cosmic scape goat of the devil and demons from the equation leaving all of your own wrong doing squarely on your shoulders, while leaving the possability that the creator may hold you accountable for your actions. (Again we have no way of knowing until we actually die)

This view seems to put me at odds with pretty much everyone and has left a nasty tasting in my mouth regarding several religions. As Free-will is a core tenet of my faith I have found that religions that reject the notions of self (Buddhism, some Hindi sects) and others which embrace predestination (Calvinist Christians, Islam, some Hindi sects) to be especially frustrating.

As for why I am a Deist I can sum it up rather simply. I learned about Rene Descartes. Pretty much everyone knows the phrase "cogito ergo sum" the "original French "Je pense donc je suis" or it's English translation "I think therefore I am" oddly Descartes chose words that have little to do with the concept he was examining; What he meant to say was more along the lines of "Ego Dubito, ergo sum" or "I doubt, therefore I am."

I think therefore I am sounds pretty and all but it does not hit on the root of the question. The original statement was part of the thought exercise to determine the limits of objective human knowledge and to draw a line between the knowable and the unknowable and it works something like this: "Do I exist? If I do not exist I cannot doubt my own existence, therefore I exist."

Sadly the instant you attempt to question the existence of anything beyond yourself you begin to have problems. All things beyond your own existence are in doubt, you have no way of know that anyone or anything is even remotely close to what you perceive them as, never mind if they are even really there. (Yeah kind of like the Matrix only with the off chance that everyone on earth [even me and you] is a monster so horrible it would give Cthulhu nightmares)

Anywho it's 2:00 AM, I'm off to bed, let me know if you have any questions. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
"Let us read, and let us dance; these two amusements will never do any harm to the world." - Voltaire
Aylstra Illianniis
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Post by Aylstra Illianniis »

Hmm. I'm not sure if this was what he was after, but- I'll bite. It's an interesting view of existence, to be sure. I'm a Wiccan, and in some ways, it's not so different than what you described. The biggest difference, I suppose, would be the belief that instead of being unknowable, the power or whatever behind the creation of the universe is multi-faceted. In other words, all gods are one god, as it were. Which basically means that any perceived idea of deity is valid.

Personal wrong doing is still our own responsibility, but rather than accountability being uncertain, the concept of karma holds that we reap what we sow. I like to thing that the universe keeps its own balance.
By the Dark Maiden''s grace do we meet. May she guide and protect us.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

A link to my tales, including my Marvel hero!:
http://mickeys-tavern.com/index.php?showforum=188
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Post by Bhaern Quel »

Belief is Error, Knowledge is Power.

There is no simple answer to faith in that people take to themselves what works for them.
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Post by Tyrmer »

...BQ makes fortune cookies now?
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High Priest of the Church of Rooky :D
Alak Xiltyn
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Post by Alak Xiltyn »

[quote="Aylstra Illianniis":5wl4cq4n]Hmm. I'm not sure if this was what he was after, but- I'll bite. It's an interesting view of existence, to be sure. I'm a Wiccan, and in some ways, it's not so different than what you described. The biggest difference, I suppose, would be the belief that instead of being unknowable, the power or whatever behind the creation of the universe is multi-faceted. In other words, all gods are one god, as it were. Which basically means that any perceived idea of deity is valid.

Personal wrong doing is still our own responsibility, but rather than accountability being uncertain, the concept of karma holds that we reap what we sow. I like to thing that the universe keeps its own balance.[/quote:5wl4cq4n]

I've never had a single problem with Wicca, it's just not for me. The core values of Wicca are similar to Deism and, like Deists, the exact nature of what an individual Wiccan believes tends to vary wildly.

Karma probably isn't the best word for it. In Buddhism one wants to walk the middle-path and have NO karma. The best way I have ever heard Karma described is that the we are all wrinkles in a cotton shirt and karma is an iron, the more Karma you have (Good or Bad) the further you are from oneness with all things (not being a wrinkle) and the longer it will take to break the cycle of death and rebirth.

[quote="Bhaern Quel":5wl4cq4n] Belief is Error, Knowledge is Power.

There is no simple answer to faith in that people take to themselves what works for them. [/quote:5wl4cq4n]

You should watch the movie "The Man from Earth" if you haven't seen it already, I think you'd enjoy it.

The problem with your initial statement goes back to my original post. The only thing beyond [b:5wl4cq4n][i:5wl4cq4n][u:5wl4cq4n]ALL[/u:5wl4cq4n][/i:5wl4cq4n][/b:5wl4cq4n] doubt is one's own existence. You must take on faith that everything else is actually there and at least reasonably similar to how you perceive it or you don't function at all.

In short, belief can't be error, you can't function without at least a little bit of it.
"Let us read, and let us dance; these two amusements will never do any harm to the world." - Voltaire
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Narsia Ny'Dhun
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Post by Narsia Ny'Dhun »

I am not religious, I never have been and am thankful for it, but I have always believed myself to be spiritual. I have always felt that the existence to god is an afterthought, and a not so necessary one to my main focus: the survival of consciousness after death. It's a simple belief, one with a very simple and very common source. I've spent a large part of my life looking for a way to justify it in the eyes of my skeptical peers who have in the past called me delusional for living in a fantasy world, unprovoked, I might add. Simply holding a world view other than their own is often enough to set an atheist off, as surely as any religious zealot in the reverse.

This isn't a path I would suggest to most people of any kind of faith, or to anyone at all, as it has brought me nothing but grief. The truth of the matter is that in the face of scientific fact, the majority of humanity's faith is easily disproved by science. That which isn't is not much of a comfort because it is little less than theory, with no means of proving or disproving it. And contrary to some belief, just because you can't disprove something doesn't make it automatically true. This search has been a long and miserable one for me that's resurrected fears about what will happen to me when I die, and what has already become of those I have lost. I have nightmares about it and have frequent bouts with depression because of it.

The point of this rant? To deconvert the pagans? Hardly. I'm no atheist, I know what I want to be true, but I no longer try to prove it or seek out the truth. My only wish is for people to be happy, I care about nothing else, and thinking about the things I have thought of in such depth brings nothing but misery. The sad, horrible reality is that there's only one way to find out. Die, and then you'll know. And if you don't, you won't know it anyway. Scary thought, one that will haunt me on a very personal level until I die.

My advice on faith views is to believe what you believe, so long as it harms neither yourself or another, and to live and be happy. Keep your views to yourself and do not try to justify yourself to others, as you have no cause to care what they think. I have always felt that such things are personal, intimate, meant to be held to nobody but yourself. Sharing it with others creates religion, and we all know what's become of that over our history.

In parting I ask you consider the words of the Buddha, who said, "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
Harl l'drathir udos alure, Eilistraee lu'Anixiel ulu kyorl udossa zuch
Rhei Lor'akris
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Post by Rhei Lor'akris »

I have some similar viewpoints Narsia. I try to enjoy life as it occurs and learn about the nature of the universe through study in a scientific area that fascinates me and aim towards helping in the advancement of the human species.
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Shir'le E. Illios
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Post by Shir'le E. Illios »

[quote="Alak Xiltyn":m8jzbitr]The only thing beyond [b:m8jzbitr][i:m8jzbitr][u:m8jzbitr]ALL[/u:m8jzbitr][/i:m8jzbitr][/b:m8jzbitr] doubt is one's own existence.[/quote:m8jzbitr]
One could challenge that. Just because one believes that they exist doesn't make it so. (It could be argued that the idea that one needs to exist to be able to think and have ideas and be able to doubt is just a supposition that can't be proven.)

But I'm just pointing that out because whenever someone claims something as absolute and unchallengeable my first reaction is to challenge it. :)


[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":m8jzbitr]Keep your views to yourself and do not try to justify yourself to others, as you have no cause to care what they think.[/quote:m8jzbitr]
In general I kind of agree (though I don't see it quite as strict as you put it since the open exchange of ideas seems like a good thing to me as long as all involved can be mature about it... much like people are doing in this thread I think). I would say though that in specific cases I'll disagree as with those that one has an intimate relationship with there should be cause to care what they think.

As I said though, I do think that the open exchange of ideas is good as long as those involved don't try to force their ideas on others or purport that theirs are somehow better than those of others. Only that way can we all enrich ourselves I think.

Or look at it like this... if you truly believed that one should keep their views to themselves then you wouldn't have just shared your views with us and thus would have deprived all of us of your worthwhile thoughts. ;)


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Bergeth'fryn
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Post by Bergeth'fryn »

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D So happy to have something beyond southern baptist!!!! Interestingly enough, my personal beliefs seem to contrast with almost everyone though, even deists and wiccans. I believe that a higher power (God, or gods, unknowable for sure) exists. But the Judeo-Christian "God" that is most well known through the bible is actually.... Dadada! The Demi-urge, AKA Satan, AKA Lucifer, et cetera et cetera. I don't have ENOUGH faith to believe all existence... or lack thereof to be a cosmic fart. I think the Gnostic texts hit it pretty straight on. "God" or the actual true deity or deities created the Demi-Urge as a companion. Why? no clue, but they did and this Demi-Urge wasn't happy with the power distribution so created Earth and said "I am God, I am great! Worship me!". what really convinced me was the general agreement of so many of the old mythologies with some of the non-canon judeo-christian lore and the Gnostic saying that any God who wants to be worshiped and is known for smiting everyone can't really be the great good lightness like the christian bible says. Essentially, I believe i guess that God is the devil and that the true divinity in the universe has turned a blind eye to the Demi-Urges power lusting.... ok, is it torch and pitchfork time then? hahaha :p :devil:
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Aylstra Illianniis
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Post by Aylstra Illianniis »

:angel: :devil: Not at all! Actually, that's something i've suspected for a very long time myself. The Bible (and contrary to what most people think, we Wiccans DO read our Bibles- if only to show the manistreamers how little they themselves often understand it...) has so many instances of God/Allah/Yahwe or whatever name you want to use smiting followers of other faiths out of- and here's the petty part, IMO- jealousy. "for God is a jealous God..." Just why DOES the judeo-christian god feel the need to be the ONLY one worshipped? That was one of the things that drove me away from Christainity (Believe it or not, I grew up in a CoC background. Or maybe that explains WHY I"m no longer one....)

Narsia, I am of like mind regarding those who think that not being able to disprove something makes it automatically true. too many religeous people point to that and say "See?! You can't prove it doesn't exist, so that makes me right!!" And they miss the entire point of what has been debated. :roll: Science has watered down much of our spirituality into true/false questions. And sadly, it now seems that science and faith have become little more than opposing camps trying to debunk each other just to prove themselves right, in many cases. When they SHOULD be working together to show the wonder and mystery of the universe as it TRULY is.
By the Dark Maiden''s grace do we meet. May she guide and protect us.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

A link to my tales, including my Marvel hero!:
http://mickeys-tavern.com/index.php?showforum=188
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Narsia Ny'Dhun
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Post by Narsia Ny'Dhun »

[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":3cbzp7kc]
In general I kind of agree (though I don't see it quite as strict as you put it since the open exchange of ideas seems like a good thing to me as long as all involved can be mature about it... much like people are doing in this thread I think). [/quote:3cbzp7kc]

Honestly, that's the only reason WHY I said anything. I've been here how long? It's given me enough time to realize that we nerds are, if nothing else, remarkably open minded to the free exchange of ideas. I respect the members of this board for that reason. Now if you were a stranger who I had never even spoken to, then I would likely keep my distance on the subject. The core principle behind my 'keep it to yourself' rule is that the one...perhaps not absolute, but constant in my life has been that good people are the exception to the rule. In my home state I know people who will not even talk politics with you out of fear that it will start a fight, because the majority of people WILL vehemently oppose you on views that they disagree with. Like, as I said above, any other zealot does.

[quote="Bergeth'fryn":3cbzp7kc]"I am God, I am great! Worship me!"[/quote:3cbzp7kc]
"Bow down to me! Worship me! Honor my name, Lezard Valeth!"

/cough...sorry, I just had to do it. And if you don't get the joke then shame shame shame on you for not playing enough video games.

To Lothir, I offer this little bit of advice. Rather than trying to dissect every contradiction or inaccuracy in the holy books try instead to consider the context of when and why it was written. I.E. the time period.

My favorite, and sadly least effective example of this is the good old book of Leviticus. First of all, try asking a Christian some time if they know that the old testament was originally taken from the Jewish Talmud, and see what they have to say.

After a long and very fascinating discussion with a Jew (I love Jews, they actually adhere to the compassion part of their faith. I just want to snuggle one up and then hide her under my pillow) on ancient Judaic law, I learned that the ever so popular anti-gay law in the bible was written with an actually practical purpose in mind. At the time, the ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people who were spread few and far between. Infant death rates were frighteningly high and anyone who directed their sexual energy toward anything but procreating was seen as a threat to the tribe. That's it. Survival. It had nothing to do with what god thought, it was about preserving the people. And those who still use it aren't aware that the law no longer applies. With 6 billion people, and god only knows how many Jews, procreating like mad it would actually work more in favor of the species if a few hundred million people didn't reproduce. We're overcrowded and low on diminishing resources as it is.

This argument usually flies over the heads of people set in their ways, sadly, but it stands as my favorite example nonetheless.

Or you could also do what my sister does and point out that the exact same verse is used to describe shellfish in the bible. DEMON CLAM RAAAAAAAAWR!!!
Harl l'drathir udos alure, Eilistraee lu'Anixiel ulu kyorl udossa zuch
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