Eilistraee

Talwyn Aureliano · Post by **Talwyn Aureliano** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:19 pm

I agree with you Shir'le.

If they move away from the poles of good and evil, especially with the gods, then we'll end up with the feeling that everyone is self centered and won't be motivated to do things thru alturism or malicious gain.

It is quite ridiculous tohave established gods who embody ethical/moral principles since their inception, to suddenly shift from being good to chaotic neutral.

Eilistraee, for me at least, is one of the few goddesses who dogma actually IS good. By making her chaotic neutral means that she would have abandoned just about all of her principles and dogma and become a selfish, erractic and unpredictable entity, almost amoral. This is definately wrong.

Ix'Chimalxochitzin · Post by **Ix'Chimalxochitzin** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:29 am

Simply put:

Can YOU see yourself playing a Lawful Evil Paladin? With 4th Ed, it's perfectly possible. In fact, Chaotic Evil Paladin would be playable as well, if he'd be following a Chaotic Evil deity.

Imho that's what they're doing to the pantheon now as well. You take an established image like Eilistraee, whom is basically the only hope good Drow have to ever get out of what Lolth managed to bring down on the race as a whole. Then you give her an alignment shift, drastically altering [i:1t0182vm]who[/i:1t0182vm] she is right down to her holy symbol.

The effect would be comparable to this:

Tyr: God of Justice.

Alignment shift: Lawful Good --> Lawful Neutral.

Reasoning: Justice should be unbiased, therefore neutral.

Wow, lemme heat up my Lawful Good Necromancer there, she's suddenly not so out of place anymore.

Talwyn Aureliano · Post by **Talwyn Aureliano** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:35 am

A Lawful Evil Paladin is Ok but a chaotic one is just ridiculous.

What's the point then if there are no restrictions? You need defining barriers to classes to make people think carefully before making and playing a BELIEVABLE character. Anything else is just silly and for my humble opinion, panders to those who always want to be the exception to the rule .
That sort of attitude is not going to make for good role playing.

Gary Gygax must be spinning in his grave, poor guy

No, I don't like where the game is going.

Ix'Chimalxochitzin · Post by **Ix'Chimalxochitzin** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:52 am

Agreed. The barriers have been weakened considerably. Also, one of my biggest gripes with the new system is this:

[quote:2ylp5upz]There will be 30 character levels, as in Arcana Evolved instead of 20 as in D&D 3.5[6]. It will take the same time to reach 30th level as it does now to reach 20th[7]. Every level will grant new abilities. [/quote:2ylp5upz]

Meaning, you basically get 10 extra levels, meaning more feats, classes and skills for you.

Meaning, everyone gets a few levels of this, a couple of levels on that... And with the alignment restriction on Paladins gone, everyone and their cousins will take 3 to become immune to Fear (Aura of Courage) and Disease (Divine Health). Oh, and a nice bonus on saving throws for Cha casters (Divine Grace) as well.

The result is a bunch of characters that have such a crapload of abilities, skills and spells that they all look like each other. Given that they get new abilities every level i can't help but wonder how making everyone a mirror image of one another can possibly help in making the game appear balanced.

Sure, there's always the pure builds, but they'd be standing next to sneak attacking Paladins, spellcasting Barbarians and Arcane+Divine Mage builds that have spell lists bigger than your entire character sheet.

jameslt0 · Post by **jameslt0** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:57 am

[quote="Talwyn Aureliano":1o9xvgj4]A Lawful Evil Paladin is Ok but a chaotic one is just ridiculous.[/quote:1o9xvgj4]

So, what your saying is a Paladin is similar to a Monk? That any Lawful alignment is ok?

Talwyn Aureliano · Post by **Talwyn Aureliano** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:21 am

[quote="jameslt0":372e97r3][quote="Talwyn Aureliano":372e97r3]A Lawful Evil Paladin is Ok but a chaotic one is just ridiculous.[/quote:372e97r3]

So, what your saying is a Paladin is similar to a Monk? That any Lawful alignment is ok?[/quote:372e97r3]

Yes, Paladins and monks MUST be lawful. They stand for a RIGID set of principles.

Being chaotic means they can change their mind at any point so what's the point in swearing an oath of loyalty or adhereing to a code of conduct?
All the gods that paladins support are Lawful except Sune. She is the only exception. Her paladins are still lawful though.

CrankyOzzie · Post by **CrankyOzzie** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:54 am

Talking about Paladins. If Paladins are a standard class, than for god's sake, make Blackguards a standard class too. They get much the same abilities, but in reverse (aura of courage vs Aura of Fear, bonuses to saves based on CHA modifier, MUST follow a god (or powerful demon, Lay on hands vs cause wounds) If thats the case, restrict them BOTH to being Lawful. Good for Paladins, Evil for Blackguards. Or, make Paladins a PrC.

Oh no, there's a flaw in my logic! Sort of. If Blackguards are going to be mad ea standard class, then why not Divine Champions? Oh, DCs don't get spell casting, unlike Blackguards, do they? But Paladins do. In my opinion, a Blackguard is essentially an "Anti Paladin", the opposite of someone who aids the weak and downtrodden, who protects the lands. So why must it be a PrC?

I like to rant.

Talwyn Aureliano · Post by **Talwyn Aureliano** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:31 am

[quote="CrankyOzzie":1wmtuvzb]Talking about Paladins. If Paladins are a standard class, than for god's sake, make Blackguards a standard class too. They get much the same abilities, but in reverse (aura of courage vs Aura of Fear, bonuses to saves based on CHA modifier, MUST follow a god (or powerful demon, Lay on hands vs cause wounds) If thats the case, restrict them BOTH to being Lawful. Good for Paladins, Evil for Blackguards. Or, make Paladins a PrC.

Oh no, there's a flaw in my logic! Sort of. If Blackguards are going to be mad ea standard class, then why not Divine Champions? Oh, DCs don't get spell casting, unlike Blackguards, do they? But Paladins do. In my opinion, a Blackguard is essentially an "Anti Paladin", the opposite of someone who aids the weak and downtrodden, who protects the lands. So why must it be a PrC?

I like to rant.[/quote:1wmtuvzb]

I wholeheartedly agree with the above!

Bring on Blackguards as a standard class

Ix'Chimalxochitzin · Post by **Ix'Chimalxochitzin** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:23 pm

I personally agree with this as well, though it needs to be said that in an evil organisation where those that survive are those that pack enough power to stave off assassination attempts, a level 1 would be a rare sight indeed.

But yeah, Blackguard = Antipal for me as well.

Nico · Post by **Nico** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:02 am

If Blackguard is to be made a core class, they'd better replace that ridiculous 'fiendish dire rat' servant. It's not much better in P&P either. I always felt a downlevelled Nightmare was far more appropriate.