Choose your villain!- For Fun!
Moderators: Shir'le E. Illios, Bhaern Quel
-
Unen_Stealthfoot
- Legend
- Posts: 1567
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:51 am
-
Narsia Ny'Dhun
- Resident
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:51 pm
- Contact:
-
Narsia Ny'Dhun
- Resident
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:51 pm
- Contact:
[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":3v68mf0a][quote="Vendrin":3v68mf0a]Mhmm. My question to you is, what kind of so called "good" goddess discriminates on gender bias? I mean if she made all her females change into males to get that side of the story, then I could let it fly, but this still irks me.[/quote:3v68mf0a]
To be fair, a number of real-world religions also discriminate on gender bias (and are still considered 'good').[/quote:3v68mf0a]
Yes, they do, however in the Forgotten Realms and D&D, good is not quite as subjective and far more clear cut.
[quote:3v68mf0a]Of course, that's more the people than the deity, but I would think it's the same with Eilistraee (then again, I'm not Ed so he might disagree
); she herself doesn't discriminate on gender but the clergy has a hard time getting out of that mindset. Maybe the changedance is just her way to try and easy them into wider understanding (she can't really afford to lose the female clergy by asking them to go through the same thing or asking them to accept male clerics as is... yet).[/quote:3v68mf0a]
If they can't tolerate males as is, they shouldn't be in her priestesshood. If she wanted to make both of her clerics switch gender for a short while, fine they can have at it, even though I still would not approve of the whole ritual. But she's asking just the men to change something vital about who they are to satisfy the egos of women who aren't willing to look past the mindset lolth instilled into them, or their own prejudices on the precept that she still needs those very women. (if that is indeed the precept, and it isn't because eilistraee [i:3v68mf0a]is[/i:3v68mf0a] gender-biased, albeit to a less extent then Lolth.)
[quote:3v68mf0a][quote="Vendrin":3v68mf0a]I know you'll disagree with me Shir'le and I can accept that, so we'll just have to agree to disagree, because to me, gender is an instrumental part of who you are, and it should not be something changed lightly, or without a great deal of thought and conviction that is the right thing to do for the rest of your life, not just long enough to make a goddess happy so you can get your spells.[/quote:3v68mf0a]
Oh, I agree with that. But as noted, the changedance isn't a permanent thing (and thus can be more lightly decided to do) and I also doubt it's "just to get spells".[/quote:3v68mf0a]
I don't think you got my point, which is probably my fault for not being clear. I don't think such a gender switch should occur unless it is permanent, and because the person wishes it, not because a goddess requires it to either prove loyalty to her, or to placate the extreme factions of her own religion.
A temporary switch to somehow learn what it is like to be a women, is insulting to both men and women. To men in the fact that we need to understand women to be of aid/worthy to be a cleric of eilistraee and to women in that it insinuates we can understand what it is to be a women simply by changing our bodies and not our minds/perceptions, especially when the change is what, a few months tops?
To be fair, a number of real-world religions also discriminate on gender bias (and are still considered 'good').[/quote:3v68mf0a]
Yes, they do, however in the Forgotten Realms and D&D, good is not quite as subjective and far more clear cut.
[quote:3v68mf0a]Of course, that's more the people than the deity, but I would think it's the same with Eilistraee (then again, I'm not Ed so he might disagree
); she herself doesn't discriminate on gender but the clergy has a hard time getting out of that mindset. Maybe the changedance is just her way to try and easy them into wider understanding (she can't really afford to lose the female clergy by asking them to go through the same thing or asking them to accept male clerics as is... yet).[/quote:3v68mf0a]If they can't tolerate males as is, they shouldn't be in her priestesshood. If she wanted to make both of her clerics switch gender for a short while, fine they can have at it, even though I still would not approve of the whole ritual. But she's asking just the men to change something vital about who they are to satisfy the egos of women who aren't willing to look past the mindset lolth instilled into them, or their own prejudices on the precept that she still needs those very women. (if that is indeed the precept, and it isn't because eilistraee [i:3v68mf0a]is[/i:3v68mf0a] gender-biased, albeit to a less extent then Lolth.)
[quote:3v68mf0a][quote="Vendrin":3v68mf0a]I know you'll disagree with me Shir'le and I can accept that, so we'll just have to agree to disagree, because to me, gender is an instrumental part of who you are, and it should not be something changed lightly, or without a great deal of thought and conviction that is the right thing to do for the rest of your life, not just long enough to make a goddess happy so you can get your spells.[/quote:3v68mf0a]
Oh, I agree with that. But as noted, the changedance isn't a permanent thing (and thus can be more lightly decided to do) and I also doubt it's "just to get spells".[/quote:3v68mf0a]
I don't think you got my point, which is probably my fault for not being clear. I don't think such a gender switch should occur unless it is permanent, and because the person wishes it, not because a goddess requires it to either prove loyalty to her, or to placate the extreme factions of her own religion.
A temporary switch to somehow learn what it is like to be a women, is insulting to both men and women. To men in the fact that we need to understand women to be of aid/worthy to be a cleric of eilistraee and to women in that it insinuates we can understand what it is to be a women simply by changing our bodies and not our minds/perceptions, especially when the change is what, a few months tops?
"What does God want? Does God want goodness or the choice of goodness? Is a man who chooses evil perhaps in some way better than a man who has good imposed upon him?"
-
Bhaern Quel
- Demigod
- Posts: 2361
- Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:32 pm
Well we do not know how long changedance lasts. The outline Ed provided was at least a day first time (perhaps longer, just not an hour to dance as female) and becoming longer each time the call came. There are no rules for it set. But I could see first time a day, second time a week, third time a month, 4th time three months (Prehaps lead a Hunt), 5th time a year (Do a Run), 6th time multiple years (perhaps childbirth).
Of course the male Drow living as an adult 600 or so years spending a small potion of life being female form clearly not much of a problem.
I though do agree with the complaint that I also xpected Eilistraee to be gender nuetral. Ed however offers the only way (for now) that males can be clerics at all.
Of course the male Drow living as an adult 600 or so years spending a small potion of life being female form clearly not much of a problem.
I though do agree with the complaint that I also xpected Eilistraee to be gender nuetral. Ed however offers the only way (for now) that males can be clerics at all.
I think we already had a discussion on the necessity of the changedance and why does it work one way. My point of view is that becouse Eilistraee is still a female drow deity, and the sociaty from which she takes (through her servants) priestesses is matriarchal... it all ads up in my opinion. It's just like with Christianity when it was first introduced to the northern tribes. Jesus was to them presented as a chieftain, a lord, a ringgiver, so that they could understand the fundamental law, the He is the supreme ruler. There was no other way to make Christianity to them attractive. Although the conversion from Lolthianism to Eilistraee is much more difficult, (it involves a change from evil to good in D&D terms, which so to say are a bit stiff) some elements MUST remain the same, for the new to somehow resemble the old. With time those new worshippers come to understand that there actually is equality between genders in the Eilistraee church. It just works in different spheres.
A male may be a priest of the Dark Maiden, but he must perform the changedance. To me it's not just a swich of bodies (like Edwin used to do in BG 2) but a change that runs deep in the psyche. And the more it lasts, the deeper it goes. It is necessery for men to "feel" more as the goddess they serve is a woman and a mother (not literally) to her followers. Hence the priests (as a more direct connection to the goddess) must be more parent-like. And caring. &ct.
Hope this is understandable...
A male may be a priest of the Dark Maiden, but he must perform the changedance. To me it's not just a swich of bodies (like Edwin used to do in BG 2) but a change that runs deep in the psyche. And the more it lasts, the deeper it goes. It is necessery for men to "feel" more as the goddess they serve is a woman and a mother (not literally) to her followers. Hence the priests (as a more direct connection to the goddess) must be more parent-like. And caring. &ct.
Hope this is understandable...
-
Narsia Ny'Dhun
- Resident
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:51 pm
- Contact:
-
DarkSongKnight
- Maid
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:57 pm
- Location: North Carolina, USA
- Contact:
*blinks*
So you have, lol.
So you have, lol.
"Courage lies not in the lack of fear...but in doing something you are afraid to."
Check out the progress on my book at http://kaavelbaelithar.deviantart.com/
Check out the progress on my book at http://kaavelbaelithar.deviantart.com/
[quote="Argoth":22f2nzzc]I think we already had a discussion on the necessity of the changedance and why does it work one way. My point of view is that becouse Eilistraee is still a female drow deity, and the sociaty from which she takes (through her servants) priestesses is matriarchal... it all ads up in my opinion.[/quote:22f2nzzc]
Oh, I agree it all adds up and make sense, but that doesn't mean I approve of it. Or ever will.
[quote:22f2nzzc]It's just like with Christianity when it was first introduced to the northern tribes. Jesus was to them presented as a chieftain, a lord, a ringgiver, so that they could understand the fundamental law, the He is the supreme ruler. There was no other way to make Christianity to them attractive. Although the conversion from Lolthianism to Eilistraee is much more difficult, (it involves a change from evil to good in D&D terms, which so to say are a bit stiff) some elements MUST remain the same, for the new to somehow resemble the old. With time those new worshippers come to understand that there actually is equality between genders in the Eilistraee church. It just works in different spheres. [/quote:22f2nzzc]
I don't see why they have to remain the same. Why is big bigotry not alright(No it's not alright to keep slaves and kill people for pleasure), but small bigotry(oh, but yes, females are still superior to males) is alright? Yes explanations have been given by Shir'le and others, but at most those are excuses for something that isn't right, it's just that it needs to be done to placate the female converts who are too used to Lolth's dogma.
I just don't see why it's such a big deal to stop seeing men as inferior when they've already had to change their world view to become eilistraeens in the first place. Now if Eilistraee were just to come out and say then females were superior, that's fine. Then it's part of her dogma, I wouldn't be pleased with it, but I'd live with it. But she's still claiming to be a faith that is gender neutral but it obviously isn't.
((and for those that want to look to at the real world, this is not the real world we are talking about))
[quote:22f2nzzc]A male may be a priest of the Dark Maiden, but he must perform the changedance. To me it's not just a swich of bodies (like Edwin used to do in BG 2) but a change that runs deep in the psyche. And the more it lasts, the deeper it goes.[/quote:22f2nzzc]
Even worse. So not only do you have to change your body to be accepted you have to change your very psyche to be accepted? So much for free choice and will.
[quote:22f2nzzc] It is necessery for men to "feel" more as the goddess they serve is a woman and a mother (not literally) to her followers. Hence the priests (as a more direct connection to the goddess) must be more parent-like. And caring. &ct. [/quote:22f2nzzc]
So why doesn't Sune require it? Or Selune? Or Sharess? Or Angharradh the elven goddess of fertility, birth?
And for that matter, why does not a single one of the male deities require something like it?
Why can't a man be parent-like? Is there something wrong with Fatherhood?
IF there was another diety of the good drow, a male, perhaps a consort or brother of Eilistraee, then she could focus on females and let males focus on said consort/brother. That is what pantheons are there for, to unite slightly different beliefs under the same over arching goal. However Eilistraee is the ONLY diety of ALL good drow, not just the females. It isn't right to believe that men somehow need to experience life as a female to serve her as a cleric. AND if that is not the reason she requires the changedance, instead it is to placate the extreme factions of her faith that still hold on to matriarchal tendencies, that is even worse, because she is acquesing to the wrongful whims of her followers to keep them, and in a realm where gods have changed to suit their followers, what is currently done to placate them, may mark the change in her self until she believes as they do.
Oh, I agree it all adds up and make sense, but that doesn't mean I approve of it. Or ever will.
[quote:22f2nzzc]It's just like with Christianity when it was first introduced to the northern tribes. Jesus was to them presented as a chieftain, a lord, a ringgiver, so that they could understand the fundamental law, the He is the supreme ruler. There was no other way to make Christianity to them attractive. Although the conversion from Lolthianism to Eilistraee is much more difficult, (it involves a change from evil to good in D&D terms, which so to say are a bit stiff) some elements MUST remain the same, for the new to somehow resemble the old. With time those new worshippers come to understand that there actually is equality between genders in the Eilistraee church. It just works in different spheres. [/quote:22f2nzzc]
I don't see why they have to remain the same. Why is big bigotry not alright(No it's not alright to keep slaves and kill people for pleasure), but small bigotry(oh, but yes, females are still superior to males) is alright? Yes explanations have been given by Shir'le and others, but at most those are excuses for something that isn't right, it's just that it needs to be done to placate the female converts who are too used to Lolth's dogma.
I just don't see why it's such a big deal to stop seeing men as inferior when they've already had to change their world view to become eilistraeens in the first place. Now if Eilistraee were just to come out and say then females were superior, that's fine. Then it's part of her dogma, I wouldn't be pleased with it, but I'd live with it. But she's still claiming to be a faith that is gender neutral but it obviously isn't.
((and for those that want to look to at the real world, this is not the real world we are talking about))
[quote:22f2nzzc]A male may be a priest of the Dark Maiden, but he must perform the changedance. To me it's not just a swich of bodies (like Edwin used to do in BG 2) but a change that runs deep in the psyche. And the more it lasts, the deeper it goes.[/quote:22f2nzzc]
Even worse. So not only do you have to change your body to be accepted you have to change your very psyche to be accepted? So much for free choice and will.
[quote:22f2nzzc] It is necessery for men to "feel" more as the goddess they serve is a woman and a mother (not literally) to her followers. Hence the priests (as a more direct connection to the goddess) must be more parent-like. And caring. &ct. [/quote:22f2nzzc]
So why doesn't Sune require it? Or Selune? Or Sharess? Or Angharradh the elven goddess of fertility, birth?
And for that matter, why does not a single one of the male deities require something like it?
Why can't a man be parent-like? Is there something wrong with Fatherhood?
IF there was another diety of the good drow, a male, perhaps a consort or brother of Eilistraee, then she could focus on females and let males focus on said consort/brother. That is what pantheons are there for, to unite slightly different beliefs under the same over arching goal. However Eilistraee is the ONLY diety of ALL good drow, not just the females. It isn't right to believe that men somehow need to experience life as a female to serve her as a cleric. AND if that is not the reason she requires the changedance, instead it is to placate the extreme factions of her faith that still hold on to matriarchal tendencies, that is even worse, because she is acquesing to the wrongful whims of her followers to keep them, and in a realm where gods have changed to suit their followers, what is currently done to placate them, may mark the change in her self until she believes as they do.
"What does God want? Does God want goodness or the choice of goodness? Is a man who chooses evil perhaps in some way better than a man who has good imposed upon him?"
-
Shir'le E. Illios
- High Priestess
- Posts: 2352
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:51 pm
- Location: Eilistraee.com
- Contact:
Alright, the discussion on gender change in Eilistraeen faith is all very interesting and all, but I'm going to cut it off here. Feel free to start a separate thread to discuss it (I'd suggest in the religious discussion forum), but let's try and keep this one somewhat on track and talk about our favorite villains. 
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
Chosen of Eilistraee
-
Narsia Ny'Dhun
- Resident
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:51 pm
- Contact: