How Did You Find Eilistraee?

[Endymion107]

We have had three new people join in the last two weeks, which is an unusually high number to my observations. So I was wondering if there might be something out there bringing in new blood that I am unaware of, and was also wondering of how all of us might have first discovered Eilistraee? Figured a bit of discussion couldn't hurt.

For me it would have been Neverwinter Nights 1, Hordes of the Underdark expansion. 2004 or 2005 I believe. Enjoyed that campaign enough to play through it half a dozen times, kept trying to play evil characters but could never bring myself to betray my allies for whatever reason, the lure of Redemption must have got to me. Kind of difficult to imagine a redeemed necromancer of Eilistraee, but not impossible I suppose.

Now that I think of it I believe NWN1 is how I discovered the drow as well.

A shame we may never see such an interesting faction of the drow in the future again...

Still a small bit of cruel hope left for that though. Hope dies last after all. Would love to see a new book series or two, preferably one without deicide.

So, what brought you here, and what part of Eilistraee and her followers do you think most appealed to you?

[Bhaern Quel]

Well I found the Dark Maiden in 2nd Edition FR print product. I believe even before NW was released (of that I am not sure).

As to year I first read of Eilistraee likely over 15 years ago plus.

5th Edition appears to at least allowing her return, though clearly hard to know how much space she will get.

[Irennan]

I found about Eilistraee while reading the WotSQ series (I read it late, 2011-2012). I quickly lost interest in the books when I read about the sword/chosen gimmick (it seriously pisses me off when stories use such cheesy and stupid plot devices, I was like -LOL, really?-). Also, I didn't like how many evil drow seemed to have to convince themselves that they did the only ''right'' possible thing after doing some douche action (it was like the authors wanted to explain drow indoctrination through the characters, but it felt off to me).

Nonetheless I found Eilistraee and Vhaeraun very interesting characters and started looking for lore about them (this way, I also found out about the Realms, which I had only heard of). Needless to say, I was saddened and extremely annoyed when I read what WotC had done to the setting (especially to the two siblings: the random gimmicks, totally out of character behaviour, pointless and self defeating decisions and so on that led to their removal from canon), so I decided to ignore the published Realms and simply use whatever interesting pre-1375 sourcebook/novel I could find.

As Bhaern said, 5th ed has a good chance to get the Dark Dancer and the Masked Lord back, but I guess it will just be a footnote more than anything else. However this fact sprung many discussions about the drow deities, which may be one of the reasons more people are starting to know about them (they are also mentioned in the latest Menzoberranzan sourcebook).

[Shir'le E. Illios]

For me it actually started with Warhammer.

Having played some Warhammer Fantasy Battles I had a dark elf army and because of that got interested in more about dark elves. When I ran out of Warhammer dark elf material (which was pretty quickly) the hobby store introduced me to Homeland, the first Drizzt novel and thus I found my entry into the Realms (and drow).

From there I started getting more Forgotten Realms drow material, such as the Menzoberranzan boxed set and the Drow of the Underdark sourcebook. The latter included a description of Eilistraee and she immediately appealed to me. This was somewhere in the mid 90s. Over the years my focus shifted more and more from drow to Eilistraee until I founded this site roughly around the time of BioWare's NWN.

That's the quick and dirty version.


Love -x-x-x-

Shir'le

[Queen Nothing]

I actually found Eilistraee -- and Drow themselves -- through Neverwinter Nights 2, while playing on a persistent world called [i:2bs5gpbm]Dalelands Beyond[/i:2bs5gpbm]. I had heard of Drow before, even fought them in games such as [i:2bs5gpbm]Baldur's Gate[/i:2bs5gpbm], but I wasn't interested in their lore until then.

After reading up on [i:2bs5gpbm]Drow of the Underdark[/i:2bs5gpbm], [i:2bs5gpbm]Faiths and Pantheons[/i:2bs5gpbm], and [i:2bs5gpbm]Demihuman Deities[/i:2bs5gpbm], I was hooked. I fell in love with Eilistraeens -- not so much the naked, dancing bit but the fact that they were hated outcasts, actively seeking redemption for their race. They were fierce, cautious warriors that risked death at almost every turn -- and I was hooked. Eilistraeens have become my favorite thing to roleplay, in a Forgotten Realms setting.

[Bhaern Quel]

I welcome you, the code I believe clearly appealed to me as well.

I have tagged the creed with a few characters that I have played.

[Shir'le E. Illios]

Nothing wrong with "the naked, dancing bit". I quite enjoy that part too.

But yes, the primary appeal, for me, lies in them finding their own path despite the opposition the rest of the world poses. Where being good, instead of the natural and easy thing to be is actually the challenge, constantly having to prove that instead of it just being assumed.

AD&D's Complete Handbook of Villains (which, despite the title, I still consider the best general character building sourcebook in all of Dungeons and Dragons) included the quote "Virtue untested is innocence". If that is true then Eilistraeen drow are far from innocent as their virtue is constantly tested. And that has a certain draw to me.

Though the exoticism certainly helps as well.


Love -x-x-x-

Shir'le

[Irennan]

[quote:12yqna5u]AD&D's Complete Handbook of Villains (which, despite the title, I still consider the best general character building sourcebook in all of Dungeons and Dragons) included the quote "Virtue untested is innocence". If that is true then Eilistraeen drow are far from innocent as their virtue is constantly tested. And that has a certain draw to me.[/quote:12yqna5u]

Yep. Innocence is boring, having to overcome old mindset and brainwashing is a cool part of eilistraeens, especially considering how hard it is when the situation -as drow on the surface- is basically them vs the world.

Also innocence wouldn't make sense on eilistraeens as:
1)They (often) are born in a Lolthite environment. Considering what happens there, talking of 'innocence' is laughable.

2)They are drow who decided to take a stand and fight so that they and their people could be free to forge their own place in the world, making their own choices. The ones among them truly committed to the cause are warriors (figuratively or literally speaking) and it's up to them to protect and help the drow who seek alternatives, so that they can survive and blossom in a world that is harsh to them. This means that times for bloodshed or the need for deception will -probably- come (in fact one thing I could picture eilistraeens doing, and that I liked about the Masked Lady, is infiltrating agents/spies -using illusions or something along those lines- among their enemies or other races, constantly trying to ensure safe conditions to establish surface dark elven settlements or divert/prevent possible hostilities/attacks. Diplomacy would still remain their main source of interaction with other races, but eilistraeens can't afford being sitting ducks when it fails).

[Alaric Darkrose]

My introduction to Eilistraee was the Starlight and Shadows trilogy. The main character, Liriel Baenre, is my easily my favorite dark elf character ever...of all time. I can go into why I liked her later, but the big thing that left an impression were the clergy of Eilistraee. I need to re-read the books to remember all of the names, but you meet Qilue (high priestess of Eilistraee) and a few other people involved. I loved how dynamic the characters were, and the message of Eilistraee.

[Regcod]

I've begin to play (or is better to say that I restarted after a lot of time) to play to D&D with friend of mine some six month ago and being fans of the old fr, onspite my mate insistence on playing in the Dragon Lance (I love also this), knowing better the first setting I decided to play there until their 'rust' for having not played for years being scraped away.
So, gently, I began to teach them a bit of fr and deities, falling in love and rediscovering Eilistraee. I mean I ever hated the clamour about Dritz, because a lot of friend of mine considered him like the true god, and so I ever hated to see too much 'good' drow, but with the Eilistraee followers there was something different that MUST be played and MUST be known to them.
At the end I saw that the more actracctive deities were Selune, Mystra, Tyr, Eilistraee, Mielikki and Tymora for elves neither Corellon had the same glamour than Eilistraee for example. So I decided to introduce a dark elven maiden pretty, kind but determined and formidable against evil. Her charm conquered the party male side, but her kind and good heart conquered the female one. Her song and dance enchanted them all (she's a bard/cleric) and the charmer party male tried already to ask her to partecipate to a Great Hunt, who know why???
Having restartd to play after a couple of year and never followed neither the Lady Penitent trilogy nor the 4.0 fr edition, I felt bad when I saw that Mystra but above all Eilistraee were cut off, so, speaking with my mate we decided to play without the Lady Penitent Trilogy and 4.0 fr... and considering that also Tyr was cut off, having lost three of six preferred deities the choice was easy

[Dostrealt]

[quote="Endymion107":5y723ifs]So, what brought you here, and what part of Eilistraee and her followers do you think most appealed to you?[/quote:5y723ifs]

I came here a long time back (and have popped in and out a few times).

My main love is Spelljammer, which has drow mentioned as one of the minor factions. Spelljammer does not give much detail about space drow, but it has three crystal spheres called Greyspace (which contains the Greyhawk world), Krynnspace (which contains the Dragonlance world) and Realmspace (which contains the Forgotten Realms world).

So, I looked into what Greyhawk, Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms said about drow and found that they do not exist in Dragonlance, but do exist in both Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms.

I could not find much about the drow pantheon that Greyhawk has (there is one) for a long time, but did find the drow pantheon for Forgotten Realms. I got interested in Eilistraee, went searching for more information and found eilistraee.com. I came back a few times to read the theological debates and eventually decided I might as well sign up.

I have since read Elaine Cunningham's [i:5y723ifs][url=http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/E ... s:5y723ifs]Evermeet: Island of Elves[/url:5y723ifs][/i:5y723ifs]* and I really like the backstory of Eilistraee as the daughter of both Corellon Larethian and Araushnee.

[i:5y723ifs]* = I mostly read this book because it has elves in spelljamming ships in it. [/i:5y723ifs]

I'm not too worried about what 5e D&D did, because most of what 4e did was in Spelljammer's future, so 5e will almost certainly be in the far-future too. I'm more interested in how the Greyhawk drow deities and Forgotten Realms drow deities might interact with each other** and what sort of hybrid pantheons might exist on the Underdark of other worlds in the Spelljammer universe.

[i:5y723ifs]** = All the FR drow deities seem to be against Eilistraee, but are there any non-evil deities in the GH drow deities that might be willing to work with her.[/i:5y723ifs]

[Shir'le E. Illios]

[quote="Dostrealt":22ocp705][i:22ocp705]** = All the FR drow deities seem to be against Eilistraee, but are there any non-evil deities in the GH drow deities that might be willing to work with her.[/i:22ocp705][/quote:22ocp705]
As far as I'm aware Lolth is the only (official) drow deity in Greyhawk. Always has been.

In fact, as I understand the drow were first created for the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_th ... s:22ocp705]Against the Giants[/url:22ocp705] module series (at the end of which it turns out to be evil drow behind the whole thing and it then continues into a drow-oriented series of modules with [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_in ... h:22ocp705]Descent into the Depths of the Earth[/url:22ocp705], [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_of_the_Drow:22ocp705]Vault of the Drow[/url:22ocp705] and [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_t ... s:22ocp705]Queen of the Demonweb Pits[/url:22ocp705]. I always get the impression that since drow were first introduced as 'monsters' and were considered very cool enemies at the time a lot of people who first encountered drow like that still want them to be the evil monsters that they were then.

To that I always considered Greyhawk to be the setting where drow were the evil monsters for people who preferred them like that, while in the Forgotten Realms they had more variety and depth (first introduced thanks to R.A. Salvatore and his Drizzt character who fleshed out the drow a whole lot more in Homeland and his subsequent novels). Eilistraee was created after that (which is possibly the reason why Drizzt doesn't worship Eilistraee, but the ranger goddess [url=http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mielikki:22ocp705]Mielikki[/url:22ocp705]). That seemed a fine way to do it to me as it gave people options as to what they preferred.

But with WotC continuously flip-flopping over which setting is their 'default' setting (Forgotten Realms was their most popular setting, but usually Greyhawk tended to be their default setting) it seems now that they decided to make the choice for everyone. I've got a suspicion that there's an old-guard player or such in WotC who's trying (and succeeding) to push through an agenda of "I want drow to be the way they want when I thought they were cool".

And just when we thought that "[url=http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/ra ... l:22ocp705]Flesh for Lolth[/url:22ocp705]" was the worst thing that they could do to the drow.


Love -x-x-x-

Shir'le

[Dostrealt]

[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":m8w7vks3][quote="Dostrealt":m8w7vks3][i:m8w7vks3]** = All the FR drow deities seem to be against Eilistraee, but are there any non-evil deities in the GH drow deities that might be willing to work with her.[/i:m8w7vks3][/quote:m8w7vks3]
As far as I'm aware Lolth is the only (official) drow deity in Greyhawk. Always has been.[/quote:m8w7vks3]

According to my research there are five drow deities in Greyhawk (including Lolth). I did get one thing wrong, in my earlier post, though. There is only [i:m8w7vks3]one[/i:m8w7vks3] non-evil deity (a CN one).

However, the CN drow deity seems pretty interesting. Rather than derail this thread, I thought I would start up a new thread, called [url=http://eilistraee.com/forums/viewtopic. ... 3:m8w7vks3]Drow deities of Greyhawk[/url:m8w7vks3]. I thought I'd better stick the thread in the "theology" section.

[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":m8w7vks3]In fact, as I understand the drow were first created for the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_th ... s:m8w7vks3]Against the Giants[/url:m8w7vks3] module series (at the end of which it turns out to be evil drow behind the whole thing and it then continues into a drow-oriented series of modules with [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_in ... h:m8w7vks3]Descent into the Depths of the Earth[/url:m8w7vks3], [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_of_the_Drow:m8w7vks3]Vault of the Drow[/url:m8w7vks3] and [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_t ... s:m8w7vks3]Queen of the Demonweb Pits[/url:m8w7vks3]. I always get the impression that since drow were first introduced as 'monsters' and were considered very cool enemies at the time a lot of people who first encountered drow like that still want them to be the evil monsters that they were then.[/quote:m8w7vks3]

I think that a lot of early D&D was a bit two dimensional.

[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":m8w7vks3]To that I always considered Greyhawk to be the setting where drow were the evil monsters for people who preferred them like that, while in the Forgotten Realms they had more variety and depth (first introduced thanks to R.A. Salvatore and his Drizzt character who fleshed out the drow a whole lot more in Homeland and his subsequent novels). Eilistraee was created after that (which is possibly the reason why Drizzt doesn't worship Eilistraee, but the ranger goddess [url=http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mielikki:m8w7vks3]Mielikki[/url:m8w7vks3]). That seemed a fine way to do it to me as it gave people options as to what they preferred.[/quote:m8w7vks3]

I think that one problem with Greyhawk vs Forgotten Realms is that the internal politics within TSR turned against Gary Gygax and I believe that Forgotten Realms was partly brought in to somehow avoid paying him royalties of somesuch. There were times during 2nd Edition where Greyhawk got a lot less expansion than Forgotten Realms did.

If things had been different, and TSR had not bought Forgotten Realms from Ed Greenwood, we might well have seen more development for Greyhawk's drow. They might have even had a deity rather similar to Eilistraee over there. I guess we will never know.

[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":m8w7vks3]But with WotC continuously flip-flopping over which setting is their 'default' setting (Forgotten Realms was their most popular setting, but usually Greyhawk tended to be their default setting) it seems now that they decided to make the choice for everyone. I've got a suspicion that there's an old-guard player or such in WotC who's trying (and succeeding) to push through an agenda of "I want drow to be the way they want when I thought they were cool".[/quote:m8w7vks3]

The 3rd Edition setting was more of a "Greyhawk lite" thing. There are even some generic 3e products that do not fit well with Greyhawk, at all. And I have met soem Greyhawk fans that tell me they think certain products are "not canon" for Greyhawk, even though they have the same branding as core D&D.

I think there has been some true support for Greyhawk during the 3rd Edition era, but it has been very patchy. And I think the easy way to do a Greyhawk book, when you don't have a Greyhawk line to back you up, is to cut everything back. So the other 4 drow deities are still there, but it is easier to make a product that focuses on Lolth. (And it is a lot easier to sell a product that only mentions Lolth to FR fans, as they do not have to remove any other deities.)

[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":m8w7vks3]And just when we thought that "[url=http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/ra ... l:m8w7vks3]Flesh for Lolth[/url:m8w7vks3]" was the worst thing that they could do to the drow. [/quote:m8w7vks3]

I've never seen that before. I'm not sure what to make of it yet.

[Kaote Bruchedaine]

What a massive question. I am afraid my answer is going to be a bit more shameful than most but I'll give it anyway.



I first came across images of Drow a good many years ago and the art was more than enough to make me curious. A little

bit of reading had me coming upon Lolthite lore. The matriarchal race of elves that wore beauty nearly no race could

really deny. This lead to me exploring it and trying to find some roleplay. I tred playing wizards, soldiers, almost

anything I could think of except the house slaves.

When that utterly failed I fell to Warcraft 3 because those Night Elves was the closest I could find at that time. I

was not yet aware of Forgotten Realms or it's respective games and books. So I played that for about a month then

without any more outlet for my interest at the time it sort of faded. On and off again I would read a little bit, enjoy

a bit more art, then disappear again.

The first time I had someone to help me with the fandom, I had a gal way back in the days of Yahoo chat ask me to RP as

Drizzt. I don't remember how it came to that point but that was when I was introduced to the novels. I was directed to

Homeland and I started on it. When I got to the graduation ceremony I chucked the book across the room and it stayed

behind the shelf it fell behind for a couple months. I had been told about how awesome and badass the character was

then turned out he has a phobia of boobs.

My unwillingness to play a character that at the time was a giant joke on himself lead me to lose that friend so my

motivation to finish the books waned. I still chipped away at them but not as rapidly as perhaps I should have. This

did give me enough knowledge to revamp my previous cookie cutter characters and put more work into them.

Some time later I remember being involved in a rant in a roleplay chatroom that was vaguely D&D themed. The subject of

the rant was about how the female players around there didn't have the spine to play Drow properly. This resulted in me

being contacted a couple days later with information about one Liriel Baenre. At the time I blew it off as being a

scape goat for someone that was failing at that previous arguement.

Yet as my displeasure grew for the utter failure of the Rp partners I kept encountering I figured I had two choices.

Either give up on Forgotten Realms RP completely or lower the bar and "settle" for Eilistraee. At the time all I knew

about Eilistraee was "This is where Drow go when they run away from home because they can't make it" To which my

opinion became " This is where Drow players run away to when they can't play Drow."

So in the name of settling for second best rather than settling for nothing at all, I picked up the Starlight and

Shadow trilogy.

This end up inspiring enough curiosity that I went wiki diving and learned a lot more about Eilistraee. I came to learn

that the character actually has some depth rather than being a cop out. This resulted in a new RP partner, a couple new

characters being born, and was granted a second outlet for my interest in Drow.

Since then I have grown to take a wider interest in Forgotten Realms and learned that while Ed Greenwood is great at

coming up with lore I think he writes his novels with one hand down his pants. (Looking at you, Elminster.)

Then I fell in with Avuna Arkenneld, the single best Forgotten Realms player I ever have known. That was a great time back on Yahoo but she has since disappeared.

These days I do not regret having taken the dive to learn of Eilistraee but strictly speaking from an RP perspective if

I found a Lolthite priestess player that were willing I would take a flying leap into that RP too. I also to date have

bought over 30 copies of the Starlight and Shadow Trilogy and given them out to friends I have hopes for. It gives a

nice stable glimpse into both major sides of Drow for them to explore.

[Faediira]

I came to love the Dark Maiden through the 2nd ed. Drow of the Underdark supplement. Thought it was perfect for my main character's family to follow the Dark Maiden. My main character doesn't full on worship the Dark Maiden but she does follow the code of ethics and such. She feeds those who are in need if they are hungry. She always has extra food. She allows strangers to sit by the fire. She plays her harp...shares her tales and learns new ones. A little this and that. Eilistraee has meant a lot to me over the years and I was very upset that 4e made it look like she died. However a friend of mine explained to me that she was not dead...because she actually didn't die. Her avatar did. Eilistraee is recouperating and after I heard from Ed Greenwood today I am super happy so hopefully wotc does the right thing by Ed and EIlistraee's fans.