In need of an Opinion Special Eilistraee Edition

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Leema Har'gachi
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In need of an Opinion Special Eilistraee Edition

Post by Leema Har'gachi » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:00 pm

So I would first like to say, I am so glad this Forum is back up SOOOOOO MUCH! Secondly, too bad there are still a few issues with blank pages, but I'll take what I can get. So I've been working of how testing some spells ideal and needed to kind-of organize how the Entries for deities should look, so I deiced to test it out with Eilistraee. Basically I gave the general stuff you need to use the Eilistraee specific stuff as the cleric. So pleasure, look it over tell me what you think and any other thoughts.
https://www.scribd.com/document/3944808 ... Eilistraee
CODENAME:Leema
Real Name:Leema Apollyon Har'gachi
Class:Variant Illusionist Favored Soul {gestalt}
Race:Shadow Drow
Height:5'8"
Weight:158 Ib.
Hair:Yellowish
Eyes:Purple(pinwheel)
Skin:Pitch-black(surrounded by Shadowy Purple Aura)
Deity:Eilistraee

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Re: In need of an Opinion Special Eilistraee Edition

Post by Irennan » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:39 am

I like the format that you used for the entry; I have a few doubts about the spells themselves, though.

Greater Spellsong seems underpowered for a 9th level spell. Take Wish as a comparison, and the Spellsong is soundly beaten at every use that you might think of. I suggest making it a 5th or 6th level spell as it is in 2e.

Moon Missiles seems to be greatly overpowered to me. I like the variety of effects that it can have on different targets, but 6d6+5 autohit damage per 2 caster levels is too much. Now, I don't know how large hp pools are in your system, but by the time you get the spell, 9th level, you have 5 missiles, dealing 30d6+30=135 average autohit damage, going up to 66d6+55=286 average autohit damage at level 20, plus additional effects (and that's without considering that you can cst this at higher spell levels, which ramps up the damage like crazy). I'd lower the damage to 3d6, using the NWN Isaac's Greater Missile Storm spell as a benchmark (considering that moon missile has added effects, and that it's one level lower). I'd also remove the possibility to add damage by casting it at higher levels. The spell already has higher damage the higher the caster level, it doesn't need further boosts IMO.

On that note, magic missile seems also very strong compared to its 3.5 and 5e equivalents. Here too I'd remove the possibility to cast it at higher levels for added damage.

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Re: In need of an Opinion Special Eilistraee Edition

Post by Leema Har'gachi » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:48 pm

Irennan wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:39 am
I like the format that you used for the entry; I have a few doubts about the spells themselves, though.

Greater Spellsong seems underpowered for a 9th level spell. Take Wish as a comparison, and the Spellsong is soundly beaten at every use that you might think of. I suggest making it a 5th or 6th level spell as it is in 2e.
So by making it 5th or 6th level your referring to the spell level of Greater Spellsong itself and not the level of cleric spells your can replicate?
Irennan wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:39 am
Moon Missiles seems to be greatly overpowered to me. I like the variety of effects that it can have on different targets, but 6d6+5 autohit damage per 2 caster levels is too much. Now, I don't know how large hp pools are in your system, but by the time you get the spell, 9th level, you have 5 missiles, dealing 30d6+30=135 average autohit damage, going up to 66d6+55=286 average autohit damage at level 20, plus additional effects (and that's without considering that you can cst this at higher spell levels, which ramps up the damage like crazy). I'd lower the damage to 3d6, using the NWN Isaac's Greater Missile Storm spell as a benchmark (considering that moon missile has added effects, and that it's one level lower). I'd also remove the possibility to add damage by casting it at higher levels. The spell already has higher damage the higher the caster level, it doesn't need further boosts IMO.

On that note, magic missile seems also very strong compared to its 3.5 and 5e equivalents. Here too I'd remove the possibility to cast it at higher levels for added damage.
You do kind of have a point there about the higher level effect stacking damage to high... You wouldn't happen to have a direct refference to this Issac's Greater Missile storm that I can read? You got me curious. I might not lower moon missile to 3d6 maybe 4d6 and cut the bonus cold damage to a smaller number.
CODENAME:Leema
Real Name:Leema Apollyon Har'gachi
Class:Variant Illusionist Favored Soul {gestalt}
Race:Shadow Drow
Height:5'8"
Weight:158 Ib.
Hair:Yellowish
Eyes:Purple(pinwheel)
Skin:Pitch-black(surrounded by Shadowy Purple Aura)
Deity:Eilistraee

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Re: In need of an Opinion Special Eilistraee Edition

Post by Irennan » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:56 pm

Here's the link to the spell: https://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Isaac%27s_gr ... sile_storm

How much damage is too much depends on the hp pools in your game, but if they are similar to the standard D&D ones, then that spell would automatically instakill basically anything.

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Re: In need of an Opinion Special Eilistraee Edition

Post by Orin » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:41 am

So to start, I'm admittedly pretty bad about balance, so I don't really have an opinion on damage, or the like, other than to say that I agree with Irennen that the damage seems a tad high. Then again, if you like high damage stuff, go for it. I got a player in my current game that has a spell that does like 8d6 damage by ripping off the target's hand and then turns it into a wight. It takes all kinds.

I really like Moon Path, like a lot. Is that one yours originally, or is that from some other Eilistraeean rules set? Either way, what it does and how it does it is frickin awesome. It's so oddly specific and somewhat situational that it is exactly the kind of spell I'd want to have.

Moonsword is cool, but it strikes me that a spell like this ought to be available to a Priestess somewhat early on, though this would be too powerful for lower levels methinks. I might add the spell Moonblade from Icewind Dale 2, which has a similar effect, but has no component, lasts a touch longer and doesn't do the moonfire ranged damage. It's just a +4 2 hander (maybe make it a bastard sword for some thematic coolness and a bit of a nerf) that does double damage to undead. I don't know if this is adaptable, but I always liked that spell when I played the game.

Bustify made me laugh my man boobies off when I read it. I had been wondering where you would even come up with such a spell and then I remembered some of your art and was like "Oh...right." While I do think that Eilistraee would suggest that all breasts are beautiful and that one should enjoy any they can find - and so would I for that matter - I also think this spell would make her snyarf.
Let not the biting, callous and sometimes cruel words of unenlightened and uncaring minds sway your heart from your passions. For it is your passions that are the language with which your soul speaks to the world.

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Re: In need of an Opinion Special Eilistraee Edition

Post by Leema Har'gachi » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:05 pm

Orin wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:41 am
So to start, I'm admittedly pretty bad about balance, so I don't really have an opinion on damage, or the like, other than to say that I agree with Irennen that the damage seems a tad high. Then again, if you like high damage stuff, go for it. I got a player in my current game that has a spell that does like 8d6 damage by ripping off the target's hand and then turns it into a wight. It takes all kinds.

I really like Moon Path, like a lot. Is that one yours originally, or is that from some other Eilistraeean rules set? Either way, what it does and how it does it is frickin awesome. It's so oddly specific and somewhat situational that it is exactly the kind of spell I'd want to have.

Moon Path is actual Irennen's Eilistraee spell he designed for his 5th edition pdf work which you can get for free at the Dm's Guild. I lowered the spell level so the sword dancers (who will only have up to 7th level spell, just like my bards) and clerics could both have access to it. I did add a little bit to it,but that is only the at higher levels effect. Basically it functions nearly identical to his original version, just at a lower spell level (originally it was 9th level).
Orin wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:41 am
Moonsword is cool, but it strikes me that a spell like this ought to be available to a Priestess somewhat early on, though this would be too powerful for lower levels methinks. I might add the spell Moonblade from Icewind Dale 2, which has a similar effect, but has no component, lasts a touch longer and doesn't do the moonfire ranged damage. It's just a +4 2 hander (maybe make it a bastard sword for some thematic coolness and a bit of a nerf) that does double damage to undead. I don't know if this is adaptable, but I always liked that spell when I played the game.
My general rule for magical enhancement bonus on weapon created via spell is +1 per 2 spell level, but I decide to make it a +5 so it matches the stats of Eilistraee's actual moon sword (see the document for what I mean). Though with the dancing, singing, and keen property it might be a bit more powerful than an 8th level spell should be..
Orin wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:41 am
Bustify made me laugh my man boobies off when I read it. I had been wondering where you would even come up with such a spell and then I remembered some of your art and was like "Oh...right." While I do think that Eilistraee would suggest that all breasts are beautiful and that one should enjoy any they can find - and so would I for that matter - I also think this spell would make her snyarf.
I am glad you at least enjoyed the spell and I am also glad you at least have looked at my art. I've been wanting to make a spell like this for a while now, which is why it is more of a general spell. But, it took me a while to figure out exactly how it should affect creatures statistically speaking. One question though... what does snyarf mean?
CODENAME:Leema
Real Name:Leema Apollyon Har'gachi
Class:Variant Illusionist Favored Soul {gestalt}
Race:Shadow Drow
Height:5'8"
Weight:158 Ib.
Hair:Yellowish
Eyes:Purple(pinwheel)
Skin:Pitch-black(surrounded by Shadowy Purple Aura)
Deity:Eilistraee

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Re: In need of an Opinion Special Eilistraee Edition

Post by Orin » Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:52 pm

Well then I guess I owe Irennen kudos on his really cool spell.

I did enjoy the spell. I can also see how it is absolutely the kind of thing a bard would employ stealthily. or that a woman might employ both in its standard version, or in the reverse manner, to control their breast size for any number of reasons, not the least of which being their breasts interfering with archery, which is why I think it's thoughtful of you to include stats for that.

I've looked at your art at length when you shared some of it earlier this year and I liked it a lot. Please understand that that "Oh...right" was not a judgment or admonishment, but a way of acknowledging that I shouldn't have wondered where you came up with it myself. The content and theme of your artwork offers an insight to this fact is all I was saying. I also think, for what it's worth, that the spell is perfectly level appropriate and the effects that you came up with are spot on and make sense. I'm glad you finally got to get the spell written down and I hope you've able to use it in a campaign.

Snyarf is a sort of slang and it's more often spelled snarf. Here's a basic definition: "(transitive, intransitive, slang) To expel (fluid or food) through the mouth or nostrils accidentally, usually while attempting to stifle laughter with one's mouth full." I usually use it to describe when people snort and blow uncontrollably out of their mouths when something is very and suddenly funny. In short, I meant to say that I think that Eilistraee would find this spell funny and charming, as I did. ;)

It is never, ever my intention to make anyone feel poorly about their art, whatever that art may be. If I did, then I apologize. I think it's the curse of communicating in writing. No matter what one is writing, unless the person reading it knows them and can infer their tone, one almost always sounds harsher, or meaner. Which is almost never my intention.
Let not the biting, callous and sometimes cruel words of unenlightened and uncaring minds sway your heart from your passions. For it is your passions that are the language with which your soul speaks to the world.

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Re: In need of an Opinion Special Eilistraee Edition

Post by Leema Har'gachi » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:05 pm

Orin wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:52 pm
Well then I guess I owe Irennen kudos on his really cool spell.

I did enjoy the spell. I can also see how it is absolutely the kind of thing a bard would employ stealthily. or that a woman might employ both in its standard version, or in the reverse manner, to control their breast size for any number of reasons, not the least of which being their breasts interfering with archery, which is why I think it's thoughtful of you to include stats for that.

I've looked at your art at length when you shared some of it earlier this year and I liked it a lot. Please understand that that "Oh...right" was not a judgment or admonishment, but a way of acknowledging that I shouldn't have wondered where you came up with it myself. The content and theme of your artwork offers an insight to this fact is all I was saying. I also think, for what it's worth, that the spell is perfectly level appropriate and the effects that you came up with are spot on and make sense. I'm glad you finally got to get the spell written down and I hope you've able to use it in a campaign.
Yeah, that was kind of the idea behind it... though reading back on it I probable should have written text explaining wither clothing is affected by extreme growth or not. On the subject of the "Oh... right", I didn't see it as judgemental I just didn't expect you guys to have taken the time to look at the rest of my art (I basically thought my attempts to draw dark elves would be all of my art you guys would be interested in) So it just took me a little by surprise.
Orin wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:52 pm
Snyarf is a sort of slang and it's more often spelled snarf. Here's a basic definition: "(transitive, intransitive, slang) To expel (fluid or food) through the mouth or nostrils accidentally, usually while attempting to stifle laughter with one's mouth full." I usually use it to describe when people snort and blow uncontrollably out of their mouths when something is very and suddenly funny. In short, I meant to say that I think that Eilistraee would find this spell funny and charming, as I did. ;)

It is never, ever my intention to make anyone feel poorly about their art, whatever that art may be. If I did, then I apologize. I think it's the curse of communicating in writing. No matter what one is writing, unless the person reading it knows them and can infer their tone, one almost always sounds harsher, or meaner. Which is almost never my intention.
So basically it mean you'd think she would find it entertaining, Personally, I always imagined her as a more serious goddess... I'd guess I just think of her in a bit more ridged way, serious, but kind.
CODENAME:Leema
Real Name:Leema Apollyon Har'gachi
Class:Variant Illusionist Favored Soul {gestalt}
Race:Shadow Drow
Height:5'8"
Weight:158 Ib.
Hair:Yellowish
Eyes:Purple(pinwheel)
Skin:Pitch-black(surrounded by Shadowy Purple Aura)
Deity:Eilistraee

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Re: In need of an Opinion Special Eilistraee Edition

Post by Irennan » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:06 pm

I only converted the Moon Path spell to 5e, it's a 3.5e spell for deities related to the moon.
Leema Har'gachi wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:05 pm

So basically it mean you'd think she would find it entertaining, Personally, I always imagined her as a more serious goddess... I'd guess I just think of her in a bit more ridged way, serious, but kind.
From her description, Eilistraee sounds very spontaneous and free spirited, and from EC's portrayal of her when she meets Sharlario and his son, she's also impish and teasing in a subtle and elegant way.

I personally think that Eilistraee has gone through way too much pain to not want to stop to celebrate every beautiful thing, laugh at silly or funny things, tease and joke, and just enjoy every moment, because she has learned that pleasant times too often end far too soon. Suffering changes how you see the world, and given Eilistraee's description, it must have changed her in that it made her appreciate beauty in everything, even in what may be considered silly, or where no one else would find it.

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Re: In need of an Opinion Special Eilistraee Edition

Post by Orin » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:39 am

I thought I responded to this earlieer, but I guess not. I must have closed a window.
Personally, I always imagined her as a more serious goddess... I'd guess I just think of her in a bit more ridged way, serious, but kind.
I personally think that Eilistraee has gone through way too much pain to not want to stop to celebrate every beautiful thing, laugh at silly or funny things, tease and joke, and just enjoy every moment, because she has learned that pleasant times too often end far too soon. Suffering changes how you see the world, and given Eilistraee's description, it must have changed her in that it made her appreciate beauty in everything, even in what may be considered silly, or where no one else would find it.
Honestly, I think you're both correct, in that I feel that Eilistraee is whatever she needs to be for herself and for her people. Kind of like how Eliminster plays different roles in a relationship depending on who he's talking to. It's also interesting to point out how certain aspects can mean different things to different people.

For example, Irennen, you were the first person I'd ever seen refer to the Dark Lady as a seductress. I always put a negative spin on this word in my mind, because in fiction and in common parlance, to an American anyway, seducing someone is a form of manipulation and so I sort of shied away from that concept. Then, upon reflection, I realized that you were VERY correct. Eilistraee IS a seductress in the best possible way, because being seductive, or even attempting to seduce someone only has a negative quality depending on the intent of the one doing the seducing. Eilistraee is seeking to seduce you, because...well she wants to. She wants to bring you joy and pleasure. That's it. She wants nothing of you, seeks nothing from you. She just wants to see you happy. What could be bad about that? Anyway, it's a pertinent thought that I'd been wanting to express for awhile, so thanks Leema for the conversation going this way.
Let not the biting, callous and sometimes cruel words of unenlightened and uncaring minds sway your heart from your passions. For it is your passions that are the language with which your soul speaks to the world.

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Re: In need of an Opinion Special Eilistraee Edition

Post by Irennan » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:29 pm

When I called Eilistraee a seductress, I didn't really mean in the romantic sense. I was using Ed's own words, in that Eilistraee seduces the drow with the beauty of life that they are denied. However, given how sexually open elves and drow are, and given that Elaine herself wrote that Eilistraee can be as "seductive as a siren", I'm sure that she can very well be a seductress, and when she is, the way you describe her intention seems spot on to me. After all, the drow only enjoy the physical side of intimacy under Lolth, they don't experience the joyful and warm side of it, and that too can be a powerful way to lead them to a better life.

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Re: In need of an Opinion Special Eilistraee Edition

Post by Orin » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:16 pm

When I called Eilistraee a seductress, I didn't really mean in the romantic sense. I was using Ed's own words, in that Eilistraee seduces the drow with the beauty of life that they are denied.
I think that's even closer to what I was trying to say. She's almost a contradiction to the classic "temptress" that leads you astray...accept that she's NOT at all. She's absolutely leading drow astray of their typical lives. I suppose it has less to do with her and more to do with drow society. Although, I think one fundamental difference between Eilistraee and the typical temptress/seductress is that for her, it isn't a trick. There really is a better life in the land of sun where the flowers grow. "sniff"
After all, the drow only enjoy the physical side of intimacy under Lolth, they don't experience the joyful and warm side of it, and that too can be a powerful way to lead them to a better life.
Under Lolth, the drow also don't really experience the more positive side of passion - only anger, lust and ambition.

I've always felt that Lolthite drow lacked any sense of true passion, any real fire. Eilistraee is the fire of the drow. The fury. That beautiful place between rage and serenity.

This entire conversation is making me realize that the character of my avatar, in the story that I have in mind for him - and in a LOT of the other incarnations of his story as well - has been absolutely seduced by Eilistraee. Drawn inexorably into the midst of her faithful by beauty, desire and mystery and always drawn into a better life.
Let not the biting, callous and sometimes cruel words of unenlightened and uncaring minds sway your heart from your passions. For it is your passions that are the language with which your soul speaks to the world.

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Re: In need of an Opinion Special Eilistraee Edition

Post by Leema Har'gachi » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:37 pm

Orin wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:39 am

Honestly, I think you're both correct, in that I feel that Eilistraee is whatever she needs to be for herself and for her people. Kind of like how Eliminster plays different roles in a relationship depending on who he's talking to. It's also interesting to point out how certain aspects can mean different things to different people.

For example, Irennen, you were the first person I'd ever seen refer to the Dark Lady as a seductress. I always put a negative spin on this word in my mind, because in fiction and in common parlance, to an American anyway, seducing someone is a form of manipulation and so I sort of shied away from that concept. Then, upon reflection, I realized that you were VERY correct. Eilistraee IS a seductress in the best possible way, because being seductive, or even attempting to seduce someone only has a negative quality depending on the intent of the one doing the seducing. Eilistraee is seeking to seduce you, because...well she wants to. She wants to bring you joy and pleasure. That's it. She wants nothing of you, seeks nothing from you. She just wants to see you happy. What could be bad about that? Anyway, it's a pertinent thought that I'd been wanting to express for awhile, so thanks Leema for the conversation going this way.
Well, I am glad I could help you stimulate that conversation. Honestly though, the way the two of you describe the lady silverhair's seductive nature kind of sound like the daydream fantasies that pop into my head... I kind of feel awkward thinking of Eilistraee being that ....hmmm Flirty?.... playful?.... sexy... That sexy. I guess I am a bit weirder than I originally thought.....
CODENAME:Leema
Real Name:Leema Apollyon Har'gachi
Class:Variant Illusionist Favored Soul {gestalt}
Race:Shadow Drow
Height:5'8"
Weight:158 Ib.
Hair:Yellowish
Eyes:Purple(pinwheel)
Skin:Pitch-black(surrounded by Shadowy Purple Aura)
Deity:Eilistraee

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Re: In need of an Opinion Special Eilistraee Edition

Post by Irennan » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:54 pm

Orin wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:16 pm
When I called Eilistraee a seductress, I didn't really mean in the romantic sense. I was using Ed's own words, in that Eilistraee seduces the drow with the beauty of life that they are denied.
I think that's even closer to what I was trying to say. She's almost a contradiction to the classic "temptress" that leads you astray...accept that she's NOT at all. She's absolutely leading drow astray of their typical lives. I suppose it has less to do with her and more to do with drow society. Although, I think one fundamental difference between Eilistraee and the typical temptress/seductress is that for her, it isn't a trick. There really is a better life in the land of sun where the flowers grow. "sniff"
Yeah, Eilistraee's a temptress in the same way as freedom fighters are enemies and criminals and temptators in a totalitarian regime. Or like anyone who has innovative ideas that go against the status quo is an unstable element in any regime, really. Eilistraee's a force of revolution and change, they are *always*, with no exception, described in negative terms by those in power (even in supposedly democratic societies).
After all, the drow only enjoy the physical side of intimacy under Lolth, they don't experience the joyful and warm side of it, and that too can be a powerful way to lead them to a better life.
Under Lolth, the drow also don't really experience the more positive side of passion - only anger, lust and ambition.

I've always felt that Lolthite drow lacked any sense of true passion, any real fire. Eilistraee is the fire of the drow. The fury. That beautiful place between rage and serenity.

This entire conversation is making me realize that the character of my avatar, in the story that I have in mind for him - and in a LOT of the other incarnations of his story as well - has been absolutely seduced by Eilistraee. Drawn inexorably into the midst of her faithful by beauty, desire and mystery and always drawn into a better life.
Hard to not be, heh.

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Re: In need of an Opinion Special Eilistraee Edition

Post by Irennan » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:59 pm

Leema Har'gachi wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:37 pm
Well, I am glad I could help you stimulate that conversation. Honestly though, the way the two of you describe the lady silverhair's seductive nature kind of sound like the daydream fantasies that pop into my head... I kind of feel awkward thinking of Eilistraee being that ....hmmm Flirty?.... playful?.... sexy... That sexy. I guess I am a bit weirder than I originally thought.....
Eilistraee can indeed be impish and playful. She's not explicitly portrayed as flirty in any situation, but--as mentioned in other comments--she wants the drow to rediscover the joy that they were denied, and sex is always--always--a powerful moving force. So, while she's not a deity of sex or generally flirty, she can be seductive if needed (and, as I said, Elaine herself said in Evermeet that Eilistraee, in her being a free spirit, can be as serious as a dwarven god when needed, as well as seductive as a siren).

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