what happens to eilistraee if....

Talwyn Aureliano · Post by **Talwyn Aureliano** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:37 am

The point that Aly'ae Ilphukiir makes about 4thEd is important, you don't have to buy it.

I never saw the point in buying 3rd or 3.5 myself.

I'm one of the dinosaurs that can do algebra

and since I'd already amassed a whole heap of 2nd Ed material, including the first Drow soucre book in which Eilistraee appears, there was little point in being milked for more cash by the cynical marketing people.

I've looked at 4thEd and I can say I think it's a step in the wrong direction. The idea that evil is winning and alignment is not as rigid as it used to be seems to me that the designers of the current system are dumbing down the game. For me, alignment was self explainitory, it made sense, it wasn't ambiguous. You didn't need to do a university unit in ethics and philosophy to understand it yet the way some people over at WoTC carry on, you'd think that they always hated the alignment system.

In regards to the idea of change being good, well it depends. Yes change is ineviatble, that's a constant, an undenyable truth. However not all change is actually warranted. I think that the axiom of "if it isn't broken, don't try to fix it" springs to mind here.
My friends bought into 3.5 and I played in their campaigns and now they are dismayed by having to learn a new system all again of they wish to stay upto date with the current system.

What it all comes down to is you and your group and what you enjoy. WoTC doesn't have control over your imagination and that's what D&D is all about in the end, a game where your imagination can run free. In my 2ndEd campaigns, house rules over rode silly inconsistancies in the rules. We used a mixture of 1st & 2nd Ed and it worked fine because the systems were compatible.
Sadly though it appears that they made 4thEd to be a new game totally which means that any previous material you have is sadly worthless if you wish to incorporate it into 4thEd. I suppose campaigns and modules could be used but they'd take a heap of work to convert and that sort of defeats the purpose.

Thalon Mercrow · Post by **Thalon Mercrow** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:43 am

well said crusader of torm.

Talwyn Aureliano · Post by **Talwyn Aureliano** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:35 am

Thank you.

I'd like to add that if alignment is not so rigid in 4thEd and that evil is ascendant, then this a COMPLETE paradigm shift for the Forgotten Realms entirely.

What major event occured that saw the weakening of some of the most powerful good gods? I must admit I have been reading many of the FR novels, I find a lot of them fairly average stuff top be honest.

FR novels literary merrits not-wthstanding, they still are considered canon material and are the vehilce in which events in the realms are portrayed.

Now I have ordered the Smedman books just to see what Eilistraee is upto. Even if she did assume Vhaeruns essense, I doubt she'd have a major personality change and shift from good to neutral. That would mean that she is indeed sliding into darkness and I think this is a mistake on the part of the writers of FR if they take this path. Also Correllon would intervine if he saw his daughter falling into darkness. I doubt he'd stand by and let her be consumed by evil without a fight. Also the rest of the elven pantheon would no doubt see the benefit in helping their dark sister gain more influence over the Drow as a counter balance to Lloth. Even some of the good aligned human dieties would perhaps choose to get involved?

CrankyOzzie · Post by **CrankyOzzie** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:25 pm

I concur. What half decent, loving father would allow his own flesh and blood to become as depraved and evil as her mother? Perhaps Corellon is like the backstop* in D&D for Eilistraee?

Time will tell. And no, in the short term, not al lchange is good, but remaining stagnant is even worse. There's a lot of 2nd edition stuff I still love, despite the complexity of it. (notabely: Planescape).

*For those that don't understand cricket, well, it's be easier for you look up the term "backstop" than to have me try and explain it.

Talwyn Aureliano · Post by **Talwyn Aureliano** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:01 pm

[quote="CrankyOzzie":2bzawxdc] *For those that don't understand cricket, well, it's be easier for you look up the term "backstop" than to have me try and explain it.

[/quote:2bzawxdc]

[polite cough] ahem, isn't the correct nonclanmenture [b:2bzawxdc]wicket keeper[/b:2bzawxdc]?

Or am I just fielding at Silly mid off?

Post by **Shir'le E. Illios** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:32 pm

[quote="Talwyn Aureliano":2ih0ht0z]The point that Aly'ae Ilphukiir makes about 4thEd is important, you don't have to buy it.[/quote:2ih0ht0z]
While this is true, that also means that pretty much all future official material released will be useless.

Of course, if we don't like where they're taking Eilistraee in 4E we can distance ourselves from that version completely, and we will if that's what they'll do. But that means that nothing they release will have any importance to us anymore. It means we'll lose some measure of officialness and make it that much harder to explain to new members what we're about. Heck, if Eilistraee still exists in 4E but changes so drastically that we don't like the deity anymore then we'll also have to content with any new people looking for the new Eilistraee.

So, while you don't have to buy a new edition, for us I do think it's very important what they're doing with the new edition. I'm not even directly talking rules and such here, but purely about the background changes (many of which come about because of the rule changes).

Love -x-x-x-

Shir'le

Talwyn Aureliano · Post by **Talwyn Aureliano** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:37 pm

It seems that 4thEd will be a game where the ethics of good and evil will be left up to the players a lot. This is stupid because anyone with half a brain and a dash of common sense could have made up some house rules that would have dealt with alignment issues.

I get the feeling that the creators of 4thEd are making a completely different game that has more moral ambiguity.

But the real shame will be, and I can guarentee there will be a fan backlash, is if the gods are twisted to suit the new rules. I mean who would want to be a paladin of Torm or a cleric of llmater if there is no more real polarisation of good and evil? If it's all these points of light then I can see a lot of established D&D players will not buy the new system and it will be a commercial failure for WoTC. I know I won't be buying it and my friends who play 3.5 are giving 4thEd the finger as well.

You are right Shir'le in that if Eilistraee is changed so much that we find it hard to empathise with her, then recruiting new members will be a bit more challenging because the website will not be up with all the new things.

However I believe that people will come by as Eilistraee has real popularity and appeal and changing her to suit a new rule set will be something that WoTC will end up regreting if they go down that path.

Dostrealt · Post by **Dostrealt** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:23 pm

[quote="CrankyOzzie":15s2cg8r]3.5 books will only be "obsolete" if you're actually playing in a game that uses 4th edition rules. Hell, they're obsolete if you're playing in a 2nd or 1st edition game, too, and some people probably still do play 2nd edition.[/quote:15s2cg8r]

People definately play AD&D. They play OD&D too.

[quote="CrankyOzzie":15s2cg8r]People still play Planescape, Mystara, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Spelljammer, and they've all been out of print for years. Though I [i:15s2cg8r]have[/i:15s2cg8r] seen a PDF of 3.5 Ed. Dragonlance, and Planescape has been reworked to fit 3.5 rules by a group of fans of the game, even sanctioned by WoTC to be an "unofficial official" release.[/quote:15s2cg8r]

Dragonlance was not actually out of print during 3rd edition. WotC published a Dragonlance Campaign Setting hardback, very similar to FRCS. There was also an entire line of 3.5 edition Dragonlance RPG books from Maragret Weis Productions. You can see them all on the Dragonlance Nexus products pages. Here is one for the [url=http://www.dlnexus.com/products/series/ ... x:15s2cg8r]3rd edition Dragonlance Sourcebooks[/url:15s2cg8r]. (That page doesn't include the six 3rd edition adventures that were made.)

As for the out of print settings, WotC appointed an "official" fan website for each of them. Planewalker.com looks after Planescape, Vaults of Pandius looks after Mystara, The Burnt World of Athas looks after Dark Sun, Beyond the Moons looks after Spelljammer and other official websites look after campaign settings you didn't mention. Even settings that were not given official websites are looked after by unofficial websites.

All these websites are authorised to do 3rd edition conversions by the ESD Conversion Agreement. Anyone can convert old D&D stuff (including any old drow or Eilistree stuff) as long as they follow the rules.

[quote="CrankyOzzie":15s2cg8r]The point I am trying to make is, it's up to the group as a whole what version of the game they wish to play. If someone wants to play 4th edition, but the rest of the group don't, then they don't GET to play 4th edition, simple. No, you can't introduce game mechanics from one version into another. Not very well, anyway. 4th edition stuff will have to be "reverse engineered" to fit 3.5 edition rules, or 3.5 stuff can be tailored to fit 4th edition rules, but you can't mix 3.5 rules and 4th edition rules and have it "just work."[/quote:15s2cg8r]

Rules might not be the only thing that comes into this. I think there will be a number of fans who want to play with 4th edition rules, but who want to dump the entire 4th edition FR background and replace it with the old 3rd edition FR background.