Clerics and Perform

Since the Chosen of Eilistraee is a religious oriented player group, naturally there is a place to have theological discussions. That is in-game religions; please leave real-world religion out of it. Debate the fine points of a certain dogma, how a church can enforce worship while staying true to its tenets or simply why one deity is better than another one is. All are free to talk about it here.

Moderators: Shir'le E. Illios, Bhaern Quel

Should Perform (Cha) be a class skill for clerics of Eilistraee?

A.) Yes, with no furthur alterations to the generic cleric class.
3
20%
B.) Yes, with the loss of heavy armor proficiency.
5
33%
C.) No, it risks giving the cleric class too many options.
2
13%
D.) No, there's not enough skill points for the cleric class.
1
7%
E.) Other (please specify in post).
4
27%
 
Total votes: 15

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Clerics and Perform

Post by DarkSongKnight »

Just wondering if the Perform skill (sing, dance, string instruments, wind instruments, etc.) should be allowed as a class skill for clerics of Eilistraee. Considering the options....:) Maybe increasing the skill points and lowering the hit die? Thoughts?
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Post by Shir'le E. Illios »

Hmm, I voted E since I’m not quite sure what my choice would fall under.

I’m content to leave it as is (as a cross-class skill, which isn’t how it’s implemented in NWN/NWN2). But with that I think that it’s interesting to note that several Eilistraee-centric classes (the Sword Dancer prestige class and the Darksong Knight replacement levels for fighter) include perform (dance at least) as a class skill.

I think that it’s proper that it takes extra effort (i.e. more skillpoints) to get the skill as a normal cleric, making it that much more significant. And it shows a certain devotion to the goddess I think to take a skill which otherwise is not all that useful to clerics.

Of course I [i:37utetxd]do[/i:37utetxd] feel that it should be a class skill (and likely a requirement too) for any Eilistraee-oriented religious prestige classes.


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Post by Bhaern Quel »

Hmm, I would expect most Clerics to multiclass a level or two Bard, espcially those that want to become Sword Dancers. Changing Cleric of one deity, intead of all Clerics is the way to unbalance things.

The idea of giving up heavy armor for perform strikes me as not giving up much. There is very little indication that Priestes often use heavey armor.
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Post by Unen_Stealthfoot »

[color=indigo:cndjbj85]If you did that, then there should be a similar effect for clerics of other gods, such as, maybe, domain skills, as well as spells. My two cents, anyway.[/color:cndjbj85]
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Post by Shyressa »

I saw this and voted E as well. Since part of the faith is studying and working on those facets of yourself to prove your devotion to Eilistraee and the things she considers important, making it a class skill would belittle it. However, I am all for giving her clerics the Bastard Sword proficiency free, since it is Eilistraee's favored weapon and it is only right that her clerics would use it in her honor. But then it does also say that clerics of Eilistraee often multiclass into fighters, bards, rangers and of course sword dancers. Its just I remember an old rule that gave clerics weapon proficiency in the use of their Deity's favored weapon.
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Post by Bhaern Quel »

Under the new rules, if one takes War Domain they get deity favorite weapon profeincy. Eilistraee does not have War Domain.

I will repeat best build is Bard2/Fighter2/Cleric3 to become a Sword dancer.

Bard for the skills and skill points.
Fighter for the bonus feat.
Cleric to get the casting level.

Living in a community or at least with people that perform evernight makes becoming a Bard a reasonable choice to take at character level one, while one might consider dedidication to the Goddess.
TLerning how to fight, taking fighter classes also makes sense because nearly everyone in the world wants to kill you, non Drow because you are Drow, Drow because you are not a spider kisser.
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Post by Shyressa »

Actually Bhaern those 2 levels of fighter make very good sense, since all Drow in the Underdark usually have at least 2 levels of fighter, at least according to the old Fiend Folio, which stated: Drow males are all at least 2nd level fighters, some as high as 7th. Males can also become mages, some as high as 12th. Female drow are also at least 2nd fighters, some as high as 9th. Most drow females are clerics, with no upper limit.

However, those born or raised on the surface, might be more inclined to be rangers or possibly barbarians. Since surviving on the surface would be more about survival techniques over pure brawn. All in all, that is actually a very great build and one I might have to explore in NWN2 heh.

Oh, and it was in 2nd edition that clerics were allowed to use the weapons of their Deities as proficient, even though there was no feats back then, but good basis to include it as a free feat in the newer versions, and just increase the War domain to be martial proficiency(any) and Weapon Focus in Deity's weapon to make up for it.
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Post by Shir'le E. Illios »

As I understand it the NWN2 expansion will include the Favored Soul base class, which is a spontaneous-casting cleric (like a divine version of a sorcerer). And, if I'm not mistaken, the favored soul gets weapon proficiency with their deities favored weapon for free.

Yes, I'm considering whether I should change Shir'le around (again :tear: ) to favored soul. Don't know enough details about the class though.


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Post by Shyressa »

Actually the War Domain is Free Martial Proficiency and Weapon Focus in their Deities favored weapon, and there is currently no War domain in NWN2 as they renamed it to the Fury domain to allow for an updated and more true War domain in the future.

But I still think clerics of Eilistraee should get the martial feat free as well since the whole religion is focused on swordcraft and not maces and clubs =) and maybe even grant the clerics proficiency in bastard sword (exotic in nwn2) as well.
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Post by Rooky »

As far as I'm concerned the E) was more to my liking. As Bhaern said, Clerics rarely use the Heavy Armor type; reasons numbering from Arcane power loss, due to weight and restriction (I don't care if you did yoga all your life, Kamasutra 3 is immpossible in Full-Plate Mail).

Next, the free proficiency. I'm not focusing my atentions on NWN/NWN 2 in any way. I'm talking about D&D 3.5;
Clerics of Eilistraee should gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword OR Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword, and to be able to take up Eitehr, Good, Chaos, or War domains.
Our Goddess, as sexy as she would be in a completly usseles, and decorative, (but also very reavealing) chainmail, is free of any restrictment to dance, sing, hug, do Kamasutra 3 and anything else that hits her, floppy eared white haired little head.
Therefore, I say that Clerics of Eilistraee, should be restricted either to Light Armor OR WITH PROFICIENCY Medium Armor.
In addition, the Perform Class should be given for free, due to Deiety.
I would also like to say that a Cleric of Eilistraee, should and without any restriction be a good candidate for the favored Soul. They're all crazy, stupid, go around town naked, and are proclaimed Village Idiot on more than one occasion...a perfect candidate...what God doesn't love them?
To shorten my ramblings wich no one reads anyways (walls are good for listening) if I could I would vote either A) or E) but I have voted none.

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Post by Shyressa »

**throws some kibbles and bits to Rooky**

Not sure Kamasutra 3 was a big thing in the time of PnP D&D but never know lol. But Clerics quite often wear full plate since they suffer no arcane power loss because they are divine casters and suffer no casting penalties.

But I agree that Clerics of Eilistraee should get the Bastard Sword proficiency at least since it is their deity's favored weapon. As for domains they already get Chaos and Good as choices, no War cause Eilistraee is not a war-mongering deity. They also get Charm, Drow, Elf, Moon and Portal to wrap up the choices.

As for armor, most clerics of Eilistraee, either go naked, soft leathers for hunting, aprons for cooking, silvery, diaphanous gowns for relaxing , and very rarely armor for battle. Its more of a preference in following her tenets and example than a forced choice. Then again almost all her clerics are elves so its not a shock that most would wear mithral chain or some sort to get the most out of their great dexterity.
But I don't really see her clerics as crazy, stupid, nudists everywhere or village idiots. Due to the stigma place on Drow as evil, vengeful creatures of the night, they are still more likely to be attacked in the village as they are anything else.

And btw you were wrong I read them and sorry I am forbidden to die cause heaven doesnt want Me and well the management in hell is scared I will take over. =P
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Post by Vendrin »

Why should they get bastard sword proficiency for free when other clerics don't get their deities favored weapon for free, unless they can take the war domain?

As for the perform thing, meh, just make music a domain of eilistraee so clerics can take it and get perform as a class skill if they want it badly enough to waste a domain.
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Post by Sancha »

I voted A. It should be a class skill for Eilistraee's priestesses, definitely.

In 2nd edition, her specialty priests, the Sword Dancers, received Dancing, Musical Instrument (horn, flute or harp) AND Singing as bonus non-weapon proficiencies.

Making Perform a class skill in 3rd ed is not much a leap from there. And not nearly as good a bonus as they got in 2nd ed anyway (which be the equivalent of giving them Perfom AND free bonus ranks in it, rather than just making it a class skill).


As far as sword proficiencies, as a DM in NWN or pnp I would allow a follower of Eilistraee to take Bastard Sword instead of one of the other free weapon feats elves get (just as one usually gives drow crossbow as a substitution for Longbow and Shortbow). It wasn't too complicated to make that adjustment in NWN for people.

Edit:
From her 3rd ed writeup in Faiths and Pantheons:
"Clerics are expected to be skilled in hunting and in playing at least one of the Dark Maiden's favored instruments (Horn, Flute or Harp). They must be adequate singers as well as fit, graceful dancers. They gather songs and musical knowledge constantly, and acquire training in the use of the sword when they can."

While this is yet another example of what the text says not being represented in the 3rd ed stats/rules of character creation, which is rampant in the D&D system, it says to me as a DM that her clerics are still required to learn those things, just as they were in 2nd edition, and it should therefore be a class skill, at mininum. Considering she is the Goddess of Song, Dance and Swordwork, it doesn't make much sense that her clerics should have to pay double points to raise their ranks in those skills....
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Post by Unen_Stealthfoot »

[color=indigo:12qxtct2]Does anyone have any info concerning various religions/patron dieties in relation to their clerics for 4e?[/color:12qxtct2]
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Post by Bhaern Quel »

[quote="Unen_Stealthfoot":8mtljtlc][color=indigo:8mtljtlc]Does anyone have any info concerning various religions/patron dieties in relation to their clerics for 4e?[/color:8mtljtlc][/quote:8mtljtlc]
From all indications the designers do not know all the changes thar will occur in 4th FR, just we know there is some hope Eilistraee lives on.
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