[quote="Sancha":w1zlgyrx] Were the werewolves even in the process of actually committing an evil act when the High Hunt slaughtered them?[/quote:w1zlgyrx]
They were traveling back to their home, doing nothing that justified being attacked.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?T ... hichpage=2
Provides the question and the links should still be good for more background.
Vhaeraunite Relationships?
Moderators: Shir'le E. Illios, Bhaern Quel
Yikes. That was pretty bad.
At least the author was able and willing to admit she'd made a major mistake due to not properly researching the source material...
Then again, from some of her other comments, she seems to have no problems with blatantly changing canon whenever she feels like it. Which is fine when writing in your own worlds, but not when writing on contract for an existing collaborative fiction universe. Kinda funny that she recognizes this, but still seems to have no problem with doing it.
It's as if she's forgotten she was hired to be an [i:2o0f57t4]author[/i:2o0f57t4], instead of a [i:2o0f57t4]Dungeon Master[/i:2o0f57t4]....
At least the author was able and willing to admit she'd made a major mistake due to not properly researching the source material...
Then again, from some of her other comments, she seems to have no problems with blatantly changing canon whenever she feels like it. Which is fine when writing in your own worlds, but not when writing on contract for an existing collaborative fiction universe. Kinda funny that she recognizes this, but still seems to have no problem with doing it.
It's as if she's forgotten she was hired to be an [i:2o0f57t4]author[/i:2o0f57t4], instead of a [i:2o0f57t4]Dungeon Master[/i:2o0f57t4]....
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Shir'le E. Illios
- High Priestess
- Posts: 2352
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:51 pm
- Location: Eilistraee.com
- Contact:
It’s interesting... just now I watched an episode of Law & Order in which a priest tried justifying killing another man by saying “God told me to do it”.
It didn’t work (Jack McCoy is just too good in the courtroom
). But having said that I think for the Eilistraeens it’s about the same. At least it seems that in Lisa Smedman’s rendering of them in Extinction the prey for the High Hunt is decided by divine guidance. As such the Eilistraeens hunt something because Eilistraee tells them to hunt it, showing absolute faith in her guidance for determining that they’re evil.
Don’t get me wrong, that part had me really worried as well. Particularly since the werewolves were rendered as perhaps not evil at all. I didn’t get it either (and I still don’t) how they could be hunting werewolves just because “they’re werewolves”, which seemed to go directly against Eilistraee’s dogma.
In the end I think the lesson to learn is: the books are just books. They might be entertaining, but they don’t really carry any more weight than what we want them to. As players we make our own truth in this fantasy world.
Of course, in that these discussions are interesting in finding some kind of mutual truth.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
It didn’t work (Jack McCoy is just too good in the courtroom
). But having said that I think for the Eilistraeens it’s about the same. At least it seems that in Lisa Smedman’s rendering of them in Extinction the prey for the High Hunt is decided by divine guidance. As such the Eilistraeens hunt something because Eilistraee tells them to hunt it, showing absolute faith in her guidance for determining that they’re evil.Don’t get me wrong, that part had me really worried as well. Particularly since the werewolves were rendered as perhaps not evil at all. I didn’t get it either (and I still don’t) how they could be hunting werewolves just because “they’re werewolves”, which seemed to go directly against Eilistraee’s dogma.
In the end I think the lesson to learn is: the books are just books. They might be entertaining, but they don’t really carry any more weight than what we want them to. As players we make our own truth in this fantasy world.
Of course, in that these discussions are interesting in finding some kind of mutual truth.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
Chosen of Eilistraee
Ahhh Vhaeraunites After My Own Heart ....
I've Been Playing Valkryn For Well over 18 Years Now .. He Has Been A Loyal Follower of Vhaeraun throughout It All ... (Well, Except Fort His First few levels When I 1st created him to be different from the other players .. then He was just a very VERY young grubby lil thief ..lol)
As A Choosen Darkmask, Valkryn Looks at the Followers of Eilistraee as annoying Goodie-Two shoes ... He's had his battles with the followers of Eilistraee, yes .. But His war is with Lloth, NOT The Dark Maiden ... He Believes STILL in the EQUALITY of sexes ... a goal ALOT of Vhaeraunites seem to Forget on the way .. he just Still looks at it from a evil point of View ... Be it, Neutral Evil LOL
I've Been reading the Lady Pentient Series ... Its A good read But Was Put Out by Vhaeraun ... He's always Seem to Be protrayed as a SMART deity .. and to wander into Eilistraee's realm ... well ... yea, Not even Valk is THAT Dumb ...
But I agree, I don't think He's Truely Dead ... no doubt he understands that his mother is the true enemy and since he knows he's not powerful enough to challenge her - especially now .. why not join forces -- for now -- with his goodie two-shoes sister? ... besides, Vhaeraun is far too popular for wotc to simply 'let him die' ....
I've Been Playing Valkryn For Well over 18 Years Now .. He Has Been A Loyal Follower of Vhaeraun throughout It All ... (Well, Except Fort His First few levels When I 1st created him to be different from the other players .. then He was just a very VERY young grubby lil thief ..lol)
As A Choosen Darkmask, Valkryn Looks at the Followers of Eilistraee as annoying Goodie-Two shoes ... He's had his battles with the followers of Eilistraee, yes .. But His war is with Lloth, NOT The Dark Maiden ... He Believes STILL in the EQUALITY of sexes ... a goal ALOT of Vhaeraunites seem to Forget on the way .. he just Still looks at it from a evil point of View ... Be it, Neutral Evil LOL
I've Been reading the Lady Pentient Series ... Its A good read But Was Put Out by Vhaeraun ... He's always Seem to Be protrayed as a SMART deity .. and to wander into Eilistraee's realm ... well ... yea, Not even Valk is THAT Dumb ...
But I agree, I don't think He's Truely Dead ... no doubt he understands that his mother is the true enemy and since he knows he's not powerful enough to challenge her - especially now .. why not join forces -- for now -- with his goodie two-shoes sister? ... besides, Vhaeraun is far too popular for wotc to simply 'let him die' ....
'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities'
- Voltaire
- Voltaire
Shir'le:
[quote:3ny7x9tm]It’s interesting... just now I watched an episode of Law & Order in which a priest tried justifying killing another man by saying “God told me to do it”.
It didn’t work (Jack McCoy is just too good in the courtroom ). But having said that I think for the Eilistraeens it’s about the same. At least it seems that in Lisa Smedman’s rendering of them in Extinction the prey for the High Hunt is decided by divine guidance. As such the Eilistraeens hunt something because Eilistraee tells them to hunt it, showing absolute faith in her guidance for determining that they’re evil.
Don’t get me wrong, that part had me really worried as well. Particularly since the werewolves were rendered as perhaps not evil at all. I didn’t get it either (and I still don’t) how they could be hunting werewolves just because “they’re werewolves”, which seemed to go directly against Eilistraee’s dogma.
In the end I think the lesson to learn is: the books are just books. They might be entertaining, but they don’t really carry any more weight than what we want them to. As players we make our own truth in this fantasy world.
Of course, in that these discussions are interesting in finding some kind of mutual truth.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le[/quote:3ny7x9tm]
One of the problems of D&D is that it is a world with an objective alignment system, but its being played and written by people in a world with a subjective alignment system - i.e. here in the real world each of us decides for ourselves what is "good" and what is "evil", though most of us agree on the general points thanks to millenia of socialization and the reality of what it takes to live with others in a communal setting. D&D is not so perfect though - an author can take a "Good" goddess, like Eilistraee, and have her do things (or command things to be done) that do not look "good" (and in our world would not be) but by definition, in D&D, they are. Even though they're not. **Shrugs.**
The problem is that when writing the books and game materials the authors occasionally forget (or perhaps ignore) that the folk in the game with stated alignments (like Eilistraee being good) are constrained in their actions by those alignments and cannot be "subjectively" good (like the priest in law and order) - they have to be [i:3ny7x9tm]objectively[/i:3ny7x9tm] good because D&D uses an objective system.
I know this is not usually a problem - I think your typical D&D party is a bunch of surface-race, good (or neutral) aligned folks out to combat evil and get rich doing it. So, they march off and kill everything marked "evil" and loot the bodies and go home and call themselves "good" - and in the objective world of D&D, they are. In our world, they would be murderous theives.
So, to make the D&D system work, I believe authors and DMs have to make those who are "good" act differently than those who are "evil" - otherwise, good and evil cease to mean anything moralistic and become simply "team names" - at that point, instead of "good" and "evil" you might as well call them "red" and "blue". But most people don't want to go into that kind of depth - its why D&D has an objective alignment system I think - it makes it easy to kill things. Label the majority of drow "Chaotic Evil" and you can then invade their homes, kill them all, women and children included, steal their stuff and then go home and not feel bad about it because they are "evil." C'est la game, non?
[quote:3ny7x9tm]It’s interesting... just now I watched an episode of Law & Order in which a priest tried justifying killing another man by saying “God told me to do it”.
It didn’t work (Jack McCoy is just too good in the courtroom ). But having said that I think for the Eilistraeens it’s about the same. At least it seems that in Lisa Smedman’s rendering of them in Extinction the prey for the High Hunt is decided by divine guidance. As such the Eilistraeens hunt something because Eilistraee tells them to hunt it, showing absolute faith in her guidance for determining that they’re evil.
Don’t get me wrong, that part had me really worried as well. Particularly since the werewolves were rendered as perhaps not evil at all. I didn’t get it either (and I still don’t) how they could be hunting werewolves just because “they’re werewolves”, which seemed to go directly against Eilistraee’s dogma.
In the end I think the lesson to learn is: the books are just books. They might be entertaining, but they don’t really carry any more weight than what we want them to. As players we make our own truth in this fantasy world.
Of course, in that these discussions are interesting in finding some kind of mutual truth.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le[/quote:3ny7x9tm]
One of the problems of D&D is that it is a world with an objective alignment system, but its being played and written by people in a world with a subjective alignment system - i.e. here in the real world each of us decides for ourselves what is "good" and what is "evil", though most of us agree on the general points thanks to millenia of socialization and the reality of what it takes to live with others in a communal setting. D&D is not so perfect though - an author can take a "Good" goddess, like Eilistraee, and have her do things (or command things to be done) that do not look "good" (and in our world would not be) but by definition, in D&D, they are. Even though they're not. **Shrugs.**
The problem is that when writing the books and game materials the authors occasionally forget (or perhaps ignore) that the folk in the game with stated alignments (like Eilistraee being good) are constrained in their actions by those alignments and cannot be "subjectively" good (like the priest in law and order) - they have to be [i:3ny7x9tm]objectively[/i:3ny7x9tm] good because D&D uses an objective system.
I know this is not usually a problem - I think your typical D&D party is a bunch of surface-race, good (or neutral) aligned folks out to combat evil and get rich doing it. So, they march off and kill everything marked "evil" and loot the bodies and go home and call themselves "good" - and in the objective world of D&D, they are. In our world, they would be murderous theives.
So, to make the D&D system work, I believe authors and DMs have to make those who are "good" act differently than those who are "evil" - otherwise, good and evil cease to mean anything moralistic and become simply "team names" - at that point, instead of "good" and "evil" you might as well call them "red" and "blue". But most people don't want to go into that kind of depth - its why D&D has an objective alignment system I think - it makes it easy to kill things. Label the majority of drow "Chaotic Evil" and you can then invade their homes, kill them all, women and children included, steal their stuff and then go home and not feel bad about it because they are "evil." C'est la game, non?
AKA Sheyreiza Valakasha, Yathtallar d'Lolth, Princess of the Demonweb Pits, aka Ghenni'salla Tlabbar, aka L'olath'anon, the Dark Flower, aka the Valsharess of ALFA, aka ... well ... you get the picture. 
I agree. The real world is far more complicated then the label D&D system. Besides, simplifications like the allignment-thing are neccesary for players, for gaming. For authors they are nothing more then suggestions. Should they really stick to everything stated in source materials, characters would really be 2D. I've been writting some stories myslef and I think I know it's very very very hard to portray a character really alive. One has to either visualise every thought appearing in the characters mind, every single strugle he could ever have with himself, or expose the character to a number of events that show what he really is. Some things may seem controversive, simply beocuse they don't fit in the stiff frames of the source books. I suppose they wouldn't do anything as ridiculuos as making Eilistraee evil or make her do some nasty things or anything, but still it's a matter of the author's idea.
*holds up hands*
Stating that she portrayed the clergy and their gods perhaps was...extremely generous of Mrs. Smedman. I was referring to Jezz in particular, and....well....*thoughtful pause* I suppose that was it.
And I'm sure this has been stated....but did the wrong placement of the Vhaeraunite masks irritate anyone? Or is my copy of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook wrong.
Stating that she portrayed the clergy and their gods perhaps was...extremely generous of Mrs. Smedman. I was referring to Jezz in particular, and....well....*thoughtful pause* I suppose that was it.
And I'm sure this has been stated....but did the wrong placement of the Vhaeraunite masks irritate anyone? Or is my copy of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook wrong.
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Rooky
- Legend
- Posts: 1607
- Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:34 am
- Location: A spooky wood, with man-eating little giant space hampsters
- Contact:
[quote="Sancha":s4mr3ldr][quote="Bhaern Quel":s4mr3ldr][quote="Sancha":s4mr3ldr][quote="Bhaern Quel"]
I am concerned about how Ms. Smedman will handle the concept of both deities, as in her last offer she did not know the Dogma of the Dark Maiden (and apparently niether did the Editors) concerning basic concepts.
If a blending actually occurs, until Lolth is dimissished I can see an uneasy truce existing between Good and Evil of the two faiths as posible. As i said before some goals and rules are near the same, it is just a matter of acceptible tatics that need to be adjusted.[/quote:s4mr3ldr]
At least in this book they got it closer than they usually do... What were your major issues with her handling of the Dark Maiden's dogma?
[/quote:s4mr3ldr]
She ran a High Hunt that killed creatures that came to the grove for healing hours before for their child. So what they were Werewolves, that does not make them evil. She also collected skulls instead of burning the bodies, if it could have been justified killing them in the first place. She was querried on this and she indicated she had not read all the dogma, but her quick fix after being informed of the dogma was to say the Were were in wolf form. *sighs*
The theory being that wolves would be eatible and left for the creatures of the woods, which should of course include wolves. Ms. Smedman at least was advised of her dogma error before it was announced she got the current triolgy so there is some hope that the dogmas of deitoes will be given greater attention.[/quote:s4mr3ldr]
*sigh* Priestesses of the Dark Maiden should not see were-wolves as automatically evil, especially considering Eilistraee is good friends with the goddess of good lycanthropes, and is herself a deity of moonlight.
I thought the Dark Maiden's Dogma was to show kindness to all, even in the face of unkindness, and only to 'repay evil' with swift retribution. In other words, don't judge them by their race or whatnot, but on how they ACT-- and break out the swords only if someone else starts trouble or you catch them in the middle of wrong-doing. Were the werewolves even in the process of actually committing an evil act when the High Hunt slaughtered them?[/quote]
You can't say that to someone who only heard of a constant struggle beetwen Llolth and Eilistraee.
If it sells good, then it's fine. Everything else falls into the irrelevant category.
I am concerned about how Ms. Smedman will handle the concept of both deities, as in her last offer she did not know the Dogma of the Dark Maiden (and apparently niether did the Editors) concerning basic concepts.
If a blending actually occurs, until Lolth is dimissished I can see an uneasy truce existing between Good and Evil of the two faiths as posible. As i said before some goals and rules are near the same, it is just a matter of acceptible tatics that need to be adjusted.[/quote:s4mr3ldr]
At least in this book they got it closer than they usually do... What were your major issues with her handling of the Dark Maiden's dogma?
[/quote:s4mr3ldr]
She ran a High Hunt that killed creatures that came to the grove for healing hours before for their child. So what they were Werewolves, that does not make them evil. She also collected skulls instead of burning the bodies, if it could have been justified killing them in the first place. She was querried on this and she indicated she had not read all the dogma, but her quick fix after being informed of the dogma was to say the Were were in wolf form. *sighs*
The theory being that wolves would be eatible and left for the creatures of the woods, which should of course include wolves. Ms. Smedman at least was advised of her dogma error before it was announced she got the current triolgy so there is some hope that the dogmas of deitoes will be given greater attention.[/quote:s4mr3ldr]
*sigh* Priestesses of the Dark Maiden should not see were-wolves as automatically evil, especially considering Eilistraee is good friends with the goddess of good lycanthropes, and is herself a deity of moonlight.
I thought the Dark Maiden's Dogma was to show kindness to all, even in the face of unkindness, and only to 'repay evil' with swift retribution. In other words, don't judge them by their race or whatnot, but on how they ACT-- and break out the swords only if someone else starts trouble or you catch them in the middle of wrong-doing. Were the werewolves even in the process of actually committing an evil act when the High Hunt slaughtered them?[/quote]
You can't say that to someone who only heard of a constant struggle beetwen Llolth and Eilistraee.
If it sells good, then it's fine. Everything else falls into the irrelevant category.
:3
I didn't have time to read the whole topic, but I'll just weigh in here.
Who among the Vhaerunites actually knows that Vhaerun is dead? And with Eilistraee assuming his portfolio, she can pretend to be him. Gods have pretended to be other gods before, I see no reason Eilistraee can not/will not do it, to bring vhaerun's church into hers.
Who among the Vhaerunites actually knows that Vhaerun is dead? And with Eilistraee assuming his portfolio, she can pretend to be him. Gods have pretended to be other gods before, I see no reason Eilistraee can not/will not do it, to bring vhaerun's church into hers.
"What does God want? Does God want goodness or the choice of goodness? Is a man who chooses evil perhaps in some way better than a man who has good imposed upon him?"
Well, by now, I'd assume that almost every Vhaeraunite knows. Eilistraee tainted Vhaeraunite darkfire with the own flecks of white Moonfire, so anytime that a priest would use divine magic, he'd know something was up, and they seem well versed enough in their opposition to figure out what happened.
Not to mention any who contacted the Lower, or Higher planes would be able to tell that there had been some sort of shift in the Drow Pantheon by asking a few simple questions.
Though, that brings up the issue again if he's dead at all.
Not to mention any who contacted the Lower, or Higher planes would be able to tell that there had been some sort of shift in the Drow Pantheon by asking a few simple questions.
Though, that brings up the issue again if he's dead at all.
Evil? So you say. But my god, my friends, and my brothers and sisters would disagree with you. You take care of yours and I'll take care of mine.
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Shir'le E. Illios
- High Priestess
- Posts: 2352
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:51 pm
- Location: Eilistraee.com
- Contact:
Ooh, Noraimund, that's a [i:rije06dj]very[/i:rije06dj] attractive avatar you've got yourself there. I could go for that. 
Ahum, sorry for the interruption...please return to your scheduled program.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
Ahum, sorry for the interruption...please return to your scheduled program.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
Chosen of Eilistraee
[quote="Noraimund":9z4x9ikl]Well, by now, I'd assume that almost every Vhaeraunite knows. Eilistraee tainted Vhaeraunite darkfire with the own flecks of white Moonfire, so anytime that a priest would use divine magic, he'd know something was up, and they seem well versed enough in their opposition to figure out what happened.
Not to mention any who contacted the Lower, or Higher planes would be able to tell that there had been some sort of shift in the Drow Pantheon by asking a few simple questions.
Though, that brings up the issue again if he's dead at all.[/quote:9z4x9ikl]
So she could pretend to be Vhaeruan saying that he killed Eilistraee and absorbed her powers, or something
Not to mention any who contacted the Lower, or Higher planes would be able to tell that there had been some sort of shift in the Drow Pantheon by asking a few simple questions.
Though, that brings up the issue again if he's dead at all.[/quote:9z4x9ikl]
So she could pretend to be Vhaeruan saying that he killed Eilistraee and absorbed her powers, or something
"What does God want? Does God want goodness or the choice of goodness? Is a man who chooses evil perhaps in some way better than a man who has good imposed upon him?"
Well....this is very interesting. I just read the new prologue for Storm of the Dead, and...
SPOILERS
Seriously, spoilers....
(Slightly incoherent semi-rant)
Okay, so, I think that Eilistraee got a heavy dosage of Vhaeraun, but, to what extent, I'm not sure. I do think that it may be teetering on the edge of Vhaeraun, perhaps, just maybe, not coming back. Which really doesn't seem fair to me. She burned through two gods in one book, and seems intent on finishing off the rest of them. And the literature that is coming from the top (The Changedance, for example), is quickly narrowing my character's options for dieties to follow.
And she hasn't even given the courtesy to get the mask right v.v
SPOILERS
Seriously, spoilers....
(Slightly incoherent semi-rant)
Okay, so, I think that Eilistraee got a heavy dosage of Vhaeraun, but, to what extent, I'm not sure. I do think that it may be teetering on the edge of Vhaeraun, perhaps, just maybe, not coming back. Which really doesn't seem fair to me. She burned through two gods in one book, and seems intent on finishing off the rest of them. And the literature that is coming from the top (The Changedance, for example), is quickly narrowing my character's options for dieties to follow.
And she hasn't even given the courtesy to get the mask right v.v
Evil? So you say. But my god, my friends, and my brothers and sisters would disagree with you. You take care of yours and I'll take care of mine.
Actually, there is an easier solution to all of it. If Vhaeruan is truly dead and Eilistraee has absorbed his portfolios, she could grant his followers their powers under guise of Vhaeruan. This is not the first time, that another deity granted powers to clerics of another in Forgotten Realms and didnt require the followers of the previous deity to change or convert, nor did the deity granting the powers change alignment or portfolios. During the Time of Troubles, Lliira answered the prayers of and granted the spells to the faithful of Waukeen when she disappeared. So in every way but one both churches remain as they were. Both groups would continue as they were, with Vhaeruanite clerics still receiving spells.