Lloth dies, someone gets screwed...

Since the Chosen of Eilistraee is a religious oriented player group, naturally there is a place to have theological discussions. That is in-game religions; please leave real-world religion out of it. Debate the fine points of a certain dogma, how a church can enforce worship while staying true to its tenets or simply why one deity is better than another one is. All are free to talk about it here.

Moderators: Shir'le E. Illios, Bhaern Quel

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Shir'le E. Illios
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Post by Shir'le E. Illios »

Bah, if you want scantily dressed then you need look no further for a deity than this very website. :p

Can't get more 'scantily' than that. ;)


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Post by Aergale »

No, i dont want "scantily dressed" female drow, i just said that sadistic scantily dressed female drow with whips are quite popular, and thus they will hardly ever be destroyed in canon, that`s all. At least that`s the only possible reason why the Wizards would leave that old oversized bug alive for such a long time.
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Post by Mikayla »

Lolth continues to live because she sells books and game materials, whether depicted as a scantily dressed drow female or in her drider form. Most gamers are male, many are adolescent, and there is not much that male adolescents fear more than a strong, wicked, female-mother figure, thus Lolth and Matron Mothers make great villains for them as they get to overcome their fears in their fantasies. The sexy priestesses represent all those cute girls the typical adolescent gamer wants but is afraid to approach - again, through fantasy, the gamer gets to overcome his fear. So, Lolth and drow females are a favored villain because they tap directly into young men's fears (strong mothers) hates (girls who reject them) and wants (sexy, powerful, untouchable women). Thats my pop psychology 101 take on it anyway.

In my case I love the drow because when my dad taught me to play D&D 30 years ago (yes, 30...ugh...) it was totally a boys game - there were no girls to be seen anywhere. Then the G3 module came out and we had drow - and the drow lived in a matriarchy! Suddenly there was a place for girls! True, it was a dark, evil, twisted place, but it was a place nonetheless - a place were girls ruled and kicked butt instead of the boys. So, that was the hook that kept [i:a7fy1kkl]me[/i:a7fy1kkl] in D&D and how I became a drow fan-girl.
AKA Sheyreiza Valakasha, Yathtallar d'Lolth, Princess of the Demonweb Pits, aka Ghenni'salla Tlabbar, aka L'olath'anon, the Dark Flower, aka the Valsharess of ALFA, aka ... well ... you get the picture. :devil:
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Post by Aergale »

Yeah, yeah. Because when SOME women say they want to be "on equal terms" with men, that just means they want to order them around. I understand that for some time women were treated worse than men in real life, and in some cultures that still is the case. But some women haven`t forgotten that. Each person should be judged (if ever) separately, based on merit alone. If someone wants others to treat him or her better, he should prove that he/she deserves it. Especially if it is difficult or requires rebellion.
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Post by Narsia Ny'Dhun »

[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":20bp4ohw]Bah, if you want scantily dressed then you need look no further for a deity than this very website. :p

Can't get more 'scantily' than that. ;)[/quote:20bp4ohw]

Yeah really, you don't get much more half naked than wearing nothing but your own skin, hair and a longsword to make it sexy. :p
Harl l'drathir udos alure, Eilistraee lu'Anixiel ulu kyorl udossa zuch
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Post by Rooky »

Unen, noone allowed you to speak.
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Post by Argoth »

Mikayla, that psychy view is great. Never thought of it that way. I agree. I've fallen in love with the race and in every story I write I have this image of them in my head. It's extremely hard to forgtet it for just a little while.
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Post by Mikayla »

Aergale:
[quote:sosznvi5]Yeah, yeah. Because when SOME women say they want to be "on equal terms" with men, that just means they want to order them around. I understand that for some time women were treated worse than men in real life, and in some cultures that still is the case. But some women haven`t forgotten that. Each person should be judged (if ever) separately, based on merit alone. If someone wants others to treat him or her better, he should prove that he/she deserves it. Especially if it is difficult or requires rebellion.[/quote:sosznvi5]

Women still are not on equal terms with men, even in the developed western nations like the United States. The laws are there to protect us, but really, how equal are we? We have had no female presidents, we have few successful female politicians (Nancy Pelosi is the FIRST woman to reach the heights that she has reached in the 200+ years of our government), and of only about 8 of the 100 CEOs of the Fortune 100 are women.

Now, certainly the situation is much better than it was, and its getting better all the time, but true equality has not come yet. As for some women wanting to order men around, yes, I am sure thats true - but its far more common for men to want to order women around. There are billion dollar industries devoted to it. Tens of thousands of women are sold into the sex trade every year so that men can have women they don't have to treat as equals, but will instead do as they tell them to do. And when women don't do what men want, men often kill them - just look at the news - from the shooting at the CNN offices in Atlanta, to the one in Oakland, to the one at the college in Washington - men who are defied by women often react with violence, even in this day and age and even in this country.

I do agree that people should be judged on merit - but I wonder how you would feel if real-life women revolted against our male dominated societies in the way that Vhaerunite males do? Your first line suggesting that some women just want to order men around and your apparent lack of understanding that women are not yet equal leads me to believe that you would oppose it and strongly. Indeed, it seems that when men are threatened with being subservient, you are ready to take up arms, but when women are subservient, you don't even notice - or at least you pretend not to, and you resent it when women "remember" that they are not treated equally.

This is all very telling and it only reinforces my theory that Vhaerun is not the god of darkness and assassins, but that he is really the god of insecurity, misogyny, and male-ego - the very same things that make Drizzt the great hero to so many adolescent males. He defies - and kills - the strong women his readers fear and resent so much.

Now, thats not true for everyone of course - but I do believe its true for lots of folks. C'est la vie.
AKA Sheyreiza Valakasha, Yathtallar d'Lolth, Princess of the Demonweb Pits, aka Ghenni'salla Tlabbar, aka L'olath'anon, the Dark Flower, aka the Valsharess of ALFA, aka ... well ... you get the picture. :devil:
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Post by Aergale »

Comparing the situation in real-life modern world and in lolthite society? No, really, i can`t claim to know what`s going on everywhere, but in countries i have been to or know enough about, things are far from being as bad. There are quite a lot of bastards everywhere, sure enough, as somewhere deep inside every real-life human there is a creature worse than a drow. But mostly, their actions are quite unlawful. And definately not as widespread (as far as i know). Besides, the gender issue is far from being the only. Any kind of free-thinking and independence is not tolerated. That`s much more important for me. That`s what makes me hate spider-kissers so much. And i sincerely believe Underdark is a missing circle of Hell, so living there is not something i can understand. And you are wrong. I would not mind if the females rebelled in a society, where things would be as bad as in lolthite society, in r.l. But i am not sure i know of a society which i would definately believe as bad in general. You seem to concentrate on gender issues too much. For me, one gender so badly mistreating another is just another thing i find wrong in lolthite society, just a part of a huge problem.
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Mikayla
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Post by Mikayla »

I never said the real life situation is as bad as Lolthian drow society - I just said women are not equal even in today's developed nations. Now, in days gone by, the situation in real life has actually been worse in some ways for women in real life - after all, for centuries women were considered chattel, property, in western cultures. While males in Lolthian society are second-class citizens, they are a cut above chattel (a status reserved for the slaves). Now, you have to reach pretty far back in western civilization history to find ritualized human sacrifice and such, and certainly the general flavor of Lothian society as depicted is far more evil than our past appears - but our history, especially following the development of Christianity, shows a regularized subjugation of women, which at its height, relegated them to the status of property. We are recovering from that now, of course.

As for my focus on gender issues - well, thats the direction this conversation and my post took. Its not the only issue I am concerned with, but a forum post is not a good place to regurgitate my every thought on every matter. I am, for example, very concerned with institutionalized governmental corruption - but thats not really apropos of this conversation, so I don't include a lengthy discourse on it.
AKA Sheyreiza Valakasha, Yathtallar d'Lolth, Princess of the Demonweb Pits, aka Ghenni'salla Tlabbar, aka L'olath'anon, the Dark Flower, aka the Valsharess of ALFA, aka ... well ... you get the picture. :devil:
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Post by Kirintha the Fair »

Ladys Please pardon my threadomancy, in advance, but an idea I've had for a while... this reminded me of.

suppose Eilistraee WAS able to destroy lloth.

either in person or by proxy

and assume she avoids any corruption based on absorbing power etc.

heres a problem (Im thinking before WAr of the spider queen started ok?)

Lloths head goes chopped off Eilistraee yells

"YAY everything is all right now!!!"

Every single yochlol in the abyss goes "oh no were out of a job"

Selvetarm pauses and sends out an avatar real quick to the prime to Commemorate his DEARLy beloved grandmothers unfortate death, at the hand of her upstart daughter... and to suggest the drow reunite... under him

vhauren will send his worshipers visions telling them to coome out of hiding, and build temples to him. IN PUBLIC in menzoberranzan


Kiarlansees priestesses do same thing with their armys of zombies

oh and ghaundar I think would probaly find many priestesses of lloth relatively quick to convert to his worship once they saw lloth was no longer loomin over them ready to punish such a betrayal.

dont even ask me what happens, when various nondrow deitys enter the mix

Ideas ofhow elistraees clergy could react to such a civil war in the pantheon.. to make sure eilistraee emerges as the one true drow deity.
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