Well, it used to be 
a discussion about gender-changing priests (Wait, does that mean they "pull a Hatshepsut" backwards? 
, but it has gone so far off topic that it`s as good as dead. Unless someone casts a true resurrection spell on it 
Ed Speaks
Moderators: Shir'le E. Illios, Bhaern Quel
[quote="Unaena_Stealthfoot":xgz8ejnn][color=indigo:xgz8ejnn]Good point. Now, what were we talking about before?[/color:xgz8ejnn][/quote:xgz8ejnn]
Well, it used to be a discussion about gender-changing priests (Wait, does that mean they "pull a Hatshepsut" backwards? , but it has gone so far off topic that it`s as good as dead. Unless someone casts a true resurrection spell on it
Well, it used to be a discussion about gender-changing priests (Wait, does that mean they "pull a Hatshepsut" backwards? , but it has gone so far off topic that it`s as good as dead. Unless someone casts a true resurrection spell on it Dont try to catch the wind.
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Unen_Stealthfoot
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Bhaern Quel
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[quote="Aergale":9yfmtkh3]*Aer is sitting in a nearby tree and watching Unaena/Unen (???) dance*
Hey, aren`t only male priests of Eilistraee supposed to perform the changedance? Can it actually work the other way around? :uh-huh:[/quote:9yfmtkh3]
Er you are new here, when Unen first came here he did not know about changedance *wink*
Hey, aren`t only male priests of Eilistraee supposed to perform the changedance? Can it actually work the other way around? :uh-huh:[/quote:9yfmtkh3]
Er you are new here, when Unen first came here he did not know about changedance *wink*
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Unen_Stealthfoot
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Bhaern Quel
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Some new words on deity killing, not directly related to the Lady Pentirent triogy but offers some options of what may be occuring.
[quote:nc3qgwza]Any mortal can ascend to godhood if venerated sufficiently; why some achieve divinity and some do not is one of the Ultimate Mysteries, that only Ao can answer (many sages may second-guess, but none can presage or predict with certainty). In general, the destruction (permanent death) of a demigod raises a very strong possibility that a new demigod will rise to take the place of the vanished demigod.
The portfolios and domains of any replacement aren’t automatic; they have to do with the nature (mortal life, deeds, and interests) of the new demigod, and of the desires and actions of existing gods (who may or may not want to seize the vacant portfolios, and may or may not be prevented in doing so by the opposition of other gods, or their own too-different-from-the-desired-portfolio natures).
However, being the mortal slayer of any sort of god does NOT guarantee that said mortal will ascend to godhood, or replace the divinity they’ve slain. The Time of Troubles (Godswar, Fall of the Gods) was an exceptional time, with exceptional circumstances; so far as the wisest mortal sages can tell, in hindsight, Ao was trying to shake up the roster of existing gods and teach the survivors a lesson.
So a mortal killing a god now, or at any non-Time of Troubles time, might very well not Ascend to take the god’s place (they might well believe otherwise, of course, with what priests may have said about the examples of Cyric, Kelemvor, and Midnight).
The “divine spark” you speak of is Ao’s to compel or steer, BUT: any mortal (I stress: not already divine) godslayer who kills a god directly, hand-to-hand, rather than long-range (by spell or contrivance), will almost certainly be bathed in a “wash” of divine power blasting outwards, from the dying god.
They may well be slain or seared into twisted but still living ruin by such energies, but are usually also “touched” and changed by the divine fire rushing through them.
This is a DM’s chance to change a character’s race, alignment, and statistics of all sorts; I have usually used it to give characters stat boosts and “wild talents” (sorcerer-like “self-renewing” spellcasting abilities, for only a few specific spells or effects); in other words, nudging them a stride closer to being superheroes. They may well, of course, not know precisely what’s happened to them, until trial-and-error or “funny happenings” afterwards clue them in. (“Hey, I fell into the fire and DIDN’T GET BURNED!”)
So a character killing Kyuss would be eligible to replace him, yes, but highly unlikely. Yes, the entire party would be eligible, too, but if they didn’t strike a direct blow against Kyuss, their eligibility would been even more highly unlikely.
If no one “in wider Faerûn” knows of their deed (and any of them telling someone about it emphatically doesn’t count; a powerful wizard or priest with a reputation and believability of their own has to witness the slaying AND WANT TO SPREAD WORD OF IT), they probably wouldn’t start getting worshipped by anyone; ergo, no demigodhood or any other sort of godhood. They might well gain powers I alluded to, above (darkvision, self-healing, feather fall or dimension door ability, vitality: a human gaining the lifespan and vigor of an elf, or an elf doubling their natural lifespan), but would then have to use those powers to do things and impress people to try to get someone to start praying to them. In other words, it’s not likely at all that they’d achieve godhood by slaying Kyuss, but they might well gain personal benefits.
On the other hand, if the slayer is already a priest, and his/her holy mission of going up against Kyuss is known and approved of by the church or the deity (who would in turn order the church to celebrate it), said mortal godslayer might be deemed a “saint” or “holy champion” or something of the sort, of the deity they worship - - and it’s from the ranks of such Holy Ones that demigods often rise, especially if something befalls the main deity. Worship of a saint would keep that mortal alive and vital, beyond normal lifespan, and therefore a potential “god in waiting.”
No godslayer, mortal or divine, automatically achieves the same divine rank as their victim, although a middling god who single-handedly takes down a greater god USUALLY gains power. Again, veneraton of massed mortals plays a part, so the extent to which mortals know about the slaying (the public relations “selling job” best done by an existing and widespread priesthood) is a determining factor.
And lastly: yes, it’s possible that Vecna finally has a small toehold on Toril and can grant spells there - - but it is FAR more likely that a deity already in the Realms (Myrkul’s the most likely one, though it could be someone else trying to “horn in on” something that would otherwise fall to Myrkul because of his portfolio) is indeed impersonating him and granting spells in his name to his “poor, ignorant cleric.”[/quote:nc3qgwza]
[quote:nc3qgwza]Any mortal can ascend to godhood if venerated sufficiently; why some achieve divinity and some do not is one of the Ultimate Mysteries, that only Ao can answer (many sages may second-guess, but none can presage or predict with certainty). In general, the destruction (permanent death) of a demigod raises a very strong possibility that a new demigod will rise to take the place of the vanished demigod.
The portfolios and domains of any replacement aren’t automatic; they have to do with the nature (mortal life, deeds, and interests) of the new demigod, and of the desires and actions of existing gods (who may or may not want to seize the vacant portfolios, and may or may not be prevented in doing so by the opposition of other gods, or their own too-different-from-the-desired-portfolio natures).
However, being the mortal slayer of any sort of god does NOT guarantee that said mortal will ascend to godhood, or replace the divinity they’ve slain. The Time of Troubles (Godswar, Fall of the Gods) was an exceptional time, with exceptional circumstances; so far as the wisest mortal sages can tell, in hindsight, Ao was trying to shake up the roster of existing gods and teach the survivors a lesson.
So a mortal killing a god now, or at any non-Time of Troubles time, might very well not Ascend to take the god’s place (they might well believe otherwise, of course, with what priests may have said about the examples of Cyric, Kelemvor, and Midnight).
The “divine spark” you speak of is Ao’s to compel or steer, BUT: any mortal (I stress: not already divine) godslayer who kills a god directly, hand-to-hand, rather than long-range (by spell or contrivance), will almost certainly be bathed in a “wash” of divine power blasting outwards, from the dying god.
They may well be slain or seared into twisted but still living ruin by such energies, but are usually also “touched” and changed by the divine fire rushing through them.
This is a DM’s chance to change a character’s race, alignment, and statistics of all sorts; I have usually used it to give characters stat boosts and “wild talents” (sorcerer-like “self-renewing” spellcasting abilities, for only a few specific spells or effects); in other words, nudging them a stride closer to being superheroes. They may well, of course, not know precisely what’s happened to them, until trial-and-error or “funny happenings” afterwards clue them in. (“Hey, I fell into the fire and DIDN’T GET BURNED!”)
So a character killing Kyuss would be eligible to replace him, yes, but highly unlikely. Yes, the entire party would be eligible, too, but if they didn’t strike a direct blow against Kyuss, their eligibility would been even more highly unlikely.
If no one “in wider Faerûn” knows of their deed (and any of them telling someone about it emphatically doesn’t count; a powerful wizard or priest with a reputation and believability of their own has to witness the slaying AND WANT TO SPREAD WORD OF IT), they probably wouldn’t start getting worshipped by anyone; ergo, no demigodhood or any other sort of godhood. They might well gain powers I alluded to, above (darkvision, self-healing, feather fall or dimension door ability, vitality: a human gaining the lifespan and vigor of an elf, or an elf doubling their natural lifespan), but would then have to use those powers to do things and impress people to try to get someone to start praying to them. In other words, it’s not likely at all that they’d achieve godhood by slaying Kyuss, but they might well gain personal benefits.
On the other hand, if the slayer is already a priest, and his/her holy mission of going up against Kyuss is known and approved of by the church or the deity (who would in turn order the church to celebrate it), said mortal godslayer might be deemed a “saint” or “holy champion” or something of the sort, of the deity they worship - - and it’s from the ranks of such Holy Ones that demigods often rise, especially if something befalls the main deity. Worship of a saint would keep that mortal alive and vital, beyond normal lifespan, and therefore a potential “god in waiting.”
No godslayer, mortal or divine, automatically achieves the same divine rank as their victim, although a middling god who single-handedly takes down a greater god USUALLY gains power. Again, veneraton of massed mortals plays a part, so the extent to which mortals know about the slaying (the public relations “selling job” best done by an existing and widespread priesthood) is a determining factor.
And lastly: yes, it’s possible that Vecna finally has a small toehold on Toril and can grant spells there - - but it is FAR more likely that a deity already in the Realms (Myrkul’s the most likely one, though it could be someone else trying to “horn in on” something that would otherwise fall to Myrkul because of his portfolio) is indeed impersonating him and granting spells in his name to his “poor, ignorant cleric.”[/quote:nc3qgwza]
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Unen_Stealthfoot
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[/color:37y9edxx]-
Bhaern Quel
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From another comment from Ed, I will not go into reason for it, that can be found at candlekeep (If link requested I will provide it)
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?T ... ichpage=26
[quote:31th92xo]For the record - - as specifically stated in the very post of mine you quoted - - I also do not find that “most Eilistraeean clerics” are sexually prolific. I do find that a large number of them, like a majority of clerics of all faiths and genders, have no steady partners: they devote themselves to the god and the faith, and the fellowship of various other clergy, rather than to life with one partner. Nor did I say that “most” Eilistraeean clerics are lesbians; I simply pointed out their strong presence as a factor, in response to a specific question. In this case, sexual ACCEPTANCE (not necessarily practices onstage, in anyone’s game) within Eilistraee’s clergy is important for roleplaying: it allows everyone to understand what’s going to be accepted, and what is not, and therefore how to roleplay characters who happen to be members of Eilistraee’s clergy. It warns a DM that a given female cleric of Eilistraee is going to have a lot of other females who care what happens to her, and may well attack PCs or others who mess with her.[/quote:31th92xo]
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?T ... ichpage=26
[quote:31th92xo]For the record - - as specifically stated in the very post of mine you quoted - - I also do not find that “most Eilistraeean clerics” are sexually prolific. I do find that a large number of them, like a majority of clerics of all faiths and genders, have no steady partners: they devote themselves to the god and the faith, and the fellowship of various other clergy, rather than to life with one partner. Nor did I say that “most” Eilistraeean clerics are lesbians; I simply pointed out their strong presence as a factor, in response to a specific question. In this case, sexual ACCEPTANCE (not necessarily practices onstage, in anyone’s game) within Eilistraee’s clergy is important for roleplaying: it allows everyone to understand what’s going to be accepted, and what is not, and therefore how to roleplay characters who happen to be members of Eilistraee’s clergy. It warns a DM that a given female cleric of Eilistraee is going to have a lot of other females who care what happens to her, and may well attack PCs or others who mess with her.[/quote:31th92xo]
Last edited by Bhaern Quel on Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bhaern Quel
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[quote="Argoth":375t2k26]Ok. Wanted to post something, but I have no bloody idea what the conversation is about... :?[/quote:375t2k26]
Hmm, the thread was started with things Ed Greenword said about the Dark Maiden. My last few posts were further comments that appeared Eilistraee related (You might notice her name in the last, the one before related to if Eilistraee actually killed any deity where portfolios might go).
Perhaps it could be sorted out a little better by spliting the Ed quotes from each other.
Hmm, the thread was started with things Ed Greenword said about the Dark Maiden. My last few posts were further comments that appeared Eilistraee related (You might notice her name in the last, the one before related to if Eilistraee actually killed any deity where portfolios might go).
Perhaps it could be sorted out a little better by spliting the Ed quotes from each other.
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Shir'le E. Illios
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- Contact:
[quote="Bhaern Quel":2yna8rkx]From another comment from Ed, I will not go into reason for it, that can be found at candlekeep (If link requested I will provide it)
[quote:2yna8rkx]For the record - - as specifically stated in the very post of mine you quoted - - I also do not find that “most Eilistraeean clerics” are sexually prolific. I do find that a large number of them, like a majority of clerics of all faiths and genders, have no steady partners: they devote themselves to the god and the faith, and the fellowship of various other clergy, rather than to life with one partner. Nor did I say that “most” Eilistraeean clerics are lesbians; I simply pointed out their strong presence as a factor, in response to a specific question. In this case, sexual ACCEPTANCE (not necessarily practices onstage, in anyone’s game) within Eilistraee’s clergy is important for roleplaying: it allows everyone to understand what’s going to be accepted, and what is not, and therefore how to roleplay characters who happen to be members of Eilistraee’s clergy. It warns a DM that a given female cleric of Eilistraee is going to have a lot of other females who care what happens to her, and may well attack PCs or others who mess with her.[/quote:2yna8rkx][/quote:2yna8rkx]
Quite interesting that, and nice to hear sicne it's been pretty much how I've been playing Shir'le anyway (she's not sexually prolific, but she doesn't have any steady partners being devoted to her goddess, and I play her with a lot of acceptance in anything, including sexuality).
Ps, I would like links to all of Ed's quotes (send them to me in PM or email, or just post them in this thread) as I'm considering setting up some Ed quote repository. Might be good to have all that information gathered somewhere with links back to the original (to prove validity). The temple site would be perfect for that I think.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
[quote:2yna8rkx]For the record - - as specifically stated in the very post of mine you quoted - - I also do not find that “most Eilistraeean clerics” are sexually prolific. I do find that a large number of them, like a majority of clerics of all faiths and genders, have no steady partners: they devote themselves to the god and the faith, and the fellowship of various other clergy, rather than to life with one partner. Nor did I say that “most” Eilistraeean clerics are lesbians; I simply pointed out their strong presence as a factor, in response to a specific question. In this case, sexual ACCEPTANCE (not necessarily practices onstage, in anyone’s game) within Eilistraee’s clergy is important for roleplaying: it allows everyone to understand what’s going to be accepted, and what is not, and therefore how to roleplay characters who happen to be members of Eilistraee’s clergy. It warns a DM that a given female cleric of Eilistraee is going to have a lot of other females who care what happens to her, and may well attack PCs or others who mess with her.[/quote:2yna8rkx][/quote:2yna8rkx]
Quite interesting that, and nice to hear sicne it's been pretty much how I've been playing Shir'le anyway (she's not sexually prolific, but she doesn't have any steady partners being devoted to her goddess, and I play her with a lot of acceptance in anything, including sexuality).
Ps, I would like links to all of Ed's quotes (send them to me in PM or email, or just post them in this thread) as I'm considering setting up some Ed quote repository. Might be good to have all that information gathered somewhere with links back to the original (to prove validity). The temple site would be perfect for that I think.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
Chosen of Eilistraee
Heya,
[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":2k3q7oeg]
Ps, I would like links to all of Ed's quotes (send them to me in PM or email, or just post them in this thread) as I'm considering setting up some Ed quote repository. Might be good to have all that information gathered somewhere with links back to the original (to prove validity). The temple site would be perfect for that I think.
[/quote:2k3q7oeg]
I'm not sure if someone has done this already via PM, but for what it's worth...
Kuje of Candlekeep has been archiving Ed's responses, you can find them: [url=http://home.rochester.rr.com/kuje/:2k3q7oeg]here[/url:2k3q7oeg]
Also, the link to the specific thread for 2007 is: [url=http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?T ... 1:2k3q7oeg]here[/url:2k3q7oeg]
Obviously these won't all be drow and Eilistraee related.
[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":2k3q7oeg]
Ps, I would like links to all of Ed's quotes (send them to me in PM or email, or just post them in this thread) as I'm considering setting up some Ed quote repository. Might be good to have all that information gathered somewhere with links back to the original (to prove validity). The temple site would be perfect for that I think.
[/quote:2k3q7oeg]
I'm not sure if someone has done this already via PM, but for what it's worth...
Kuje of Candlekeep has been archiving Ed's responses, you can find them: [url=http://home.rochester.rr.com/kuje/:2k3q7oeg]here[/url:2k3q7oeg]
Also, the link to the specific thread for 2007 is: [url=http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?T ... 1:2k3q7oeg]here[/url:2k3q7oeg]
Obviously these won't all be drow and Eilistraee related.
Have you little mice had fun while the cat was away? I hope so.
U:
[quote:37c04t9y]Tch, tch... A lame way of escaping a losing argument, Mikayla. No no no BTW, what exactly have the spider-kissers accomplished, other than beating the hells out of ech other, hmm? Any lasting, profitable conquests, or accomplishments? And when lolth does dissappear, for whatever reason, her entire civilization goes to hell. (so to speak) Have you noticed that when, say, Eilistraee, or Vhaeraun dissapears, (or nearly any other diety) their religions stay balanced and stable.[/quote:37c04t9y]
Umm..huge, beautiful, sophisticated cities, like Menzoberranzan, Ched Nasad (granted, it fell), Karsouthiyl, Schindylrynn (sp?), Maerimydra, Udrek'thoz, etc. etc. The list is long. Indeed, some of Lolth's cities, like Menzo, are among the longest lived societies in all of Faerun - Menzo has stood for more than 5,000 years - I do not believe there is a human city in Faerun that can make the same claim - that is a pretty lasting conquest (you may recall the cavern was taken from a beholder and the dwarven Black Axe clan). Indeed, point to something in Faerun that the elves have managed to hold on to for 5000 years straight?
As for when Eilistraee and Vhaerun disappear - when have they? The first time is ... now ... with the "death" of Vhaerun. And since that was introduced in the last chapter of the book, more or less, we've no idea whats going to happen.
As for when Lolth disappeared - she lost two cities - Ched and Maerimydra - but the rest of her cities held, even without the Goddess and despite the best efforts of Vhaerun's followers, who could barely make a dent in Lolth's societies even with Lolth silent. Now that Lolth is back, well, Vhaerun and his people are no longer on the offensive - now they are hunted in the forests they call home.
The real question is what have Eilistraee's followers accomplished? Built a single society? City? Anything? The Promenade is your greatest accomplishment and its only, what, a century or two old with a hundred or so people in it, compared to say, Menzoberranzan which was founded by Lolthian refugees but has lasted 5,000 years and grown to tens of thousands of people. So - in the same time period, Lolth's followers have founded huge cities, while Eilistraee's followers have founded . . . a couple of campgrounds?
P.S. Hi Zand - I was wondering when I would see you here. **hugs**
U:
[quote:37c04t9y]Tch, tch... A lame way of escaping a losing argument, Mikayla. No no no BTW, what exactly have the spider-kissers accomplished, other than beating the hells out of ech other, hmm? Any lasting, profitable conquests, or accomplishments? And when lolth does dissappear, for whatever reason, her entire civilization goes to hell. (so to speak) Have you noticed that when, say, Eilistraee, or Vhaeraun dissapears, (or nearly any other diety) their religions stay balanced and stable.[/quote:37c04t9y]
Umm..huge, beautiful, sophisticated cities, like Menzoberranzan, Ched Nasad (granted, it fell), Karsouthiyl, Schindylrynn (sp?), Maerimydra, Udrek'thoz, etc. etc. The list is long. Indeed, some of Lolth's cities, like Menzo, are among the longest lived societies in all of Faerun - Menzo has stood for more than 5,000 years - I do not believe there is a human city in Faerun that can make the same claim - that is a pretty lasting conquest (you may recall the cavern was taken from a beholder and the dwarven Black Axe clan). Indeed, point to something in Faerun that the elves have managed to hold on to for 5000 years straight?
As for when Eilistraee and Vhaerun disappear - when have they? The first time is ... now ... with the "death" of Vhaerun. And since that was introduced in the last chapter of the book, more or less, we've no idea whats going to happen.
As for when Lolth disappeared - she lost two cities - Ched and Maerimydra - but the rest of her cities held, even without the Goddess and despite the best efforts of Vhaerun's followers, who could barely make a dent in Lolth's societies even with Lolth silent. Now that Lolth is back, well, Vhaerun and his people are no longer on the offensive - now they are hunted in the forests they call home.
The real question is what have Eilistraee's followers accomplished? Built a single society? City? Anything? The Promenade is your greatest accomplishment and its only, what, a century or two old with a hundred or so people in it, compared to say, Menzoberranzan which was founded by Lolthian refugees but has lasted 5,000 years and grown to tens of thousands of people. So - in the same time period, Lolth's followers have founded huge cities, while Eilistraee's followers have founded . . . a couple of campgrounds?
P.S. Hi Zand - I was wondering when I would see you here. **hugs**
AKA Sheyreiza Valakasha, Yathtallar d'Lolth, Princess of the Demonweb Pits, aka Ghenni'salla Tlabbar, aka L'olath'anon, the Dark Flower, aka the Valsharess of ALFA, aka ... well ... you get the picture. 