Ed Speaks

Aergale · Post by **Aergale** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:35 pm

Yess! Finally, it started to get interesting again. Thank you.

1. Well, females have less reasons to rebel than males in drow society, but they still have plenty of reasons.

2. Yes, survival of the fittest. Not life, just survival. Existence in Lolth-ruled cities is worse than death. Everyone betrays everyone just because. Culling the weak out of the HERD? Come on, it`s just a way of depriving the drow of anything that would take their attention from serving that oversized bug. Friendship, for example. They are made into robots who do what they are told until Lolth destroys them completely. And the environment? It`s a prison cell. Does that make spider-kissers effective little slaves and then snacks for the bug? Yes. Is that any way for a deity to treat her/his followers? No. I can`t imagine anyone being happy in such a society, no matter how hard i try. Maybe content because they dont know it can be better or because they have no courage to rebel. But not happy. Every "test" the bug unleashes on her followers slowly but surely destroys them, and others around them, until they become empty shells. And then, there is the matter of attempting to destroy anyone who follows other deities, if the spider-kissers can get their hands on the "heretic" just to appease the mad sadistic piece of nonsense the spider-kissers call a deity. Except Selvetarmites, whose deity managed to get himself into slavery to the bug. Yeah. Vhaeraunites and most Kiaransaleen are NOT weak by any stretch of imagination. In fact, the real weakness is serving Lolth, because she needs slaves, not strong and free dark elves. If not for the eternal internal feuds in dark elven society, especially between spider-kissers themselves, the Ssri tel` Quessir would have ruled the world, or at least a large part of it. And frankly, they would be better rulers than humans.

3. Well, L is an Intermediate deity(and has S as her pet, plus some allies - not many, but they can be manipulated to a desired end), while V is a Lesser deity, many enemies besides the oversized bug, and no real allies. (Shar and Mask? Come on, noone expects Shar to be a real ally for anyone, it`s more of a "who outsmarts whom and gets the better end of the deal" situation. And Mask? Like he would be capable of playing in the big league even if he wanted to. He lost to Cyric, and spectacularly so. Meh). He doesn`t have much to work with, and what he has he uses well. He is as effective as is possible in the circumstances without sacrificing more of his followers than absolutely necessary or becoming a servant of either Corellon or Shar. Cormanthor was a better start than trying to convince the light-skinned elves and humans who hate the drow to not start a war outright. The plan was to establish a power base in Cormanthor, try to seize the power of a mythal and then negotiate on equal terms. But the mythal didn`t work for them, and the elves suddenly started returning to Cormanthor - a little bit sooner than the surface Ssri tel` Quessir would have liked. Now, if the elves came somewhat later... Jezz would surely hold more power in Cormanthor by then. He never wastes his time, and probably would have amassed enough influence/power/temporary allies to have a real say in the matters. Now, he could try to negotiate an alliance with some other power of the region when it became apparent that trouble is coming. But then the other side of the agreement would be able to enforce their own terms. And outright war simply couldn`t work in the circumstances. They had to divide their attention between many enemies. Paying so much attention to fighting spider-kissers before WotSQ happened was not the best idea on their part, because so many resources were used on it, but well, they couldn`t just leave their main enemies be.

As for the WotSQ itself... Ched Nasad was destroyed by Zammzt and maybe some ally of his manipulating the events to his end.

And Menzoberranzan was incredibly close to falling. If Nimor hadn`t suddenly freaked out (which was out of character), Gromph would have been dead and without his help Menzo would have fallen. And then Intraxis failed with the Yorthae.

4. Vhaeraun a tyrant???!!! Where did you take that from? Who made that up? Sure, his ego is huge (not nearly as huge as that of Lolth, naturally), but he treats his followers fairly and doesn`t impose his will. In fact, it is their independence that leads them to him. Of course, to become a "heretic" you need to be pretty sure of what you are doing, and thus most vhaeraunites are very devoted to their cause. But it`s their choice.

Mikayla · Post by **Mikayla** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:50 pm

Close doesn't count - Menzoberranzan withstood the worst its enemies could throw at it without the support of Lolth and it still stands. If living in Lolthian society were "worse than death", Menzoberranzan's situation would have been much different. But alas, only Ched Nasad and Maerimydra fell, while Menzo, Undrek'Thoz, Sshindylryn, etc. all withstood the silence.

Now, you've made lots of arguments about quality of life and such, but...so what? In the end Vhaerun is weak and Lolth is strong. The followers of Lolth, despite all their internal strife, have numerous large, sophisticated, rich and powerful cities while the followers of Vhaerun are struggling to hang-on to their campsite in the Cormanthor. Vhaerun could be a regular teddy-bear-cum-Santa-Clause personality wise, but its does not change the fact that at the end of the day, Lolth is stronger, while Vhaerun is weaker, and commensurately, Lolth is the best hope for the survival of the Drow race.

Aergale · Post by **Aergale** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:44 pm

Mere survival is such a miserable goal. There is much more to life. And - for what do you want to survive? There is little worth living for in the Night Below. Your only purpose is service. In the end, spider-kissers get nothing from their deity, and lose everything. Survival is not enough. Existence is nothing without freedom, friendsip, and the chance to live life to the fullest and have fun

Can your precious cities make up for that? Now, believing that survival is the only thing that matters, is weakness. Spider-kissers dont have the guts to fight for themselves, to break all the barriers and reach out. Yes, it is dangerous - but the risk is worth taking, damnit! Your world is quite small, and you wouldn`t really leave it. Because outside of it, you face things that you aren`t used to - like the breathtaking abyss above your heads instead of a heavy ceiling. And suddenly there are no rules and there is no "right way" - because Lolth has very little influence out there. And sooner or later you come back to your decorated, comfortable swamp instead of facing the harsh world outside. Pityable, really.

Mikayla · Post by **Mikayla** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:57 pm

Nothing to live for? Surely you jest - or perhaps you are merely uninformed. For how many centuries did Matron Ghenni'tiroth of Qu'ellar Faen Tlabbar rule, in luxury, in absolute power, before her death? That is centuries of pleasure and fulfillment in a world far more sophisticated and luxurious than some primitive forest dwelling, or the ruins of another culture's civilization. And if centuries of power and luxury are not enough, what about Matron Yvonnel Baenre's reign of more than 2,000 years? What follower of Vhaerun ever enjoyed such a reward in this life? None. True, both of those Matrons died, but then, all drow must eventually die (though some will choose undeath or have undeath thrust upon them, while a few might "transcend" into outsiders, like the Arachne of Lolth). So, there is much to enjoy in Lolth's cities - from the most talented masseuses in the world, to the most exotic wines, to the finest art and the most incredible magics. Our reluctance to leave our cities does not come from fear - it comes froms a lack of interesting alternatives. What has Cormanthor to offer? A sky? So what? Trees? Big deal. The ruins of a fairy elf civilization? I am glad they're dead. Your Vhaerunites eek out a survivalist existence on the fringes of mainstream cultures, and accordingly, your religion and its adherents are relegated to insignificance. I'll take the beautiful, wonderous, enchanted cave-scapes of our people's homelands over the ruins of other people's civilizations any cycle.

Aergale · Post by **Aergale** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:46 pm

Heh. I can say "So what?" and "Big deal" to all those things you call examples of your well-being. Without freedom, they are worth less than snow. And none of your matrons really rule - they are playthings for your eight-legged nuisance. And not to mention that while having enemies who will keep you in shape is great, friends are also needed. Even the most comfortable cage is still a cage. You say Vhaeraunites "eek out a survivalist existence on the fringes of mainstream cultures". Why, do you think, they prefer to leave the cities that, for all their beauty, can never make the greyness of the Night Below any less boring? Is it not possible, that in the outside world they find something much more revarding than anything a spider-kisser might ever hope to find? Why would they go through all the troubles if it wasn`t worth it?
Why settle for dull caves and no real open spaces when there is such beauty in the Night Abowe? Why settle for constant strife when camraderie can make you stronger? There WILL be beautifil cities, luxury and wonderful exotic wine. Later. Unless the Vhaeraunites just give up, which they wouldn`t do. Carving out their own place in the Night Abowe will not be easy, and might not be soon, but who said life should be easy? it should be full, exciting, fun, free and intoxicating.

Mikayla · Post by **Mikayla** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:58 pm

[i:7s5822mk]Why[/i:7s5822mk] do Vhaerunites do what they do? Thats an easy question to answer: they flee to the surface and to the arms of their "god" because they are too weak to make it in a Lolth-dominated society where the weak are culled religiously. In short, they flee for their miserable lives and now live like homeless people in a park. If it were not so fun to sacrifice them I would not think twice about letting them go - as they defect they take their weakness with them and leave us all the stronger.

Aergale · Post by **Aergale** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:48 am

LOL...

you keep thinking that a vhaeraunite can`t make it in Lolth ruled cities, yeah. How, then, do they survive long enough to become adults? Not many followers of the Masked Lord are raised in this faith, most come to him on their own. And suddenly a vhaeraunite would become too "weak" to live with the spider-kissers? Yes, that`s why a relatively large number of Vhaeraunites secretly populates your cities. And what about, for example, the Tower of the Masked Mage in Sshamath? Or the Jaezred Chaulssin and their network of spies? And you yourself mentioned they took Ched Nasad. And have you heard about Masked Traitors? And, while it`s nothing more than speculation, i wonder if the Bregan d` Aerthe might have even more secrets than they appear to. Jarlaxle certainly dislikes the oversized bug, what would keep him from accepting heretics to his team, or at least allying with them sometimes? However, matters could have changed after the guy decided the Night Above held interesting opportunities.

Spider-kissers hate heretics and actively hunt them. But the heretics not only survive, they live and enjoy their lifes. Spider-kissers, meanwhile, are nothing more than slaves. And those who fight for their freedom are always stronger than the slaves of the chick with hairy legs.

Mikayla · Post by **Mikayla** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:10 am

And yet, despite your protestations of strength and accomplishment your godlings followers are still camped out beneath the trees like nomadic, homeless beggars looking for someone to take them in and give them soup. The only expansion your cult has seen in 10,000 years was when Lolth went silent, and the moment she woke up, your "best" as typified by Nimor, went running for safety with their (dragon) tail between their legs. And where is your godling now? Answering prayers? No...it seems not. While I do not believe him dead, I do believe him bested by his sister and now forced to join in her scheme against their mother.

And yes - we are slaves to Lolth - that is how it should be. We live better, accomplish more, and outshine your godling's followers in all ways. Our goddess is the Goddess of the Drow - your god . . . does what? Oh, right..he "hides." He covers up his face. He sneaks about. Thats not a god, thats a burglar. If you want to worship a petty thief whose leadership has led you to live like vagabonds in someone else's ruins, be my guest. I on the other hand, will worship a real goddess who commands real respect and power - Lolth.

Bhaern Quel · Post by **Bhaern Quel** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:54 am

[quote:288m01nh]All priests
of the Masked Lord must be male, with the rare exception of suborned
priests of Lolth. [/quote:288m01nh]

Aergale · Post by **Aergale** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:35 am

[quote="Mikayla":96mz60t5]And yet... [/quote:96mz60t5]

Heh. Many vhaeraunites live in forests or are nomadic (or both), but it isn`t nearly as bad as you imagine it to be. Do you remember the way the dwellings of house Jaelre were described in WotSQ? Now, other places might not have the same style as ancient elven ruins, but treehouses are enough for guys who spend most of their time outside - adapting to the Night Abowe, getting into troubles, generally keeping themselves busy

And for those who really miss city life, there`s always the option of infiltrating thieves` guilds and the like. However, travelling and adventuring beats any other lifestyle i`ve tried.

Nimor is definately not "the best". He simply was in the right time and in the right place, but turned out to the wrong person. Surprising, really, as his actions before the incident suggested he was not a coward.

Vhaeraun forced to join in his sister`s scheme? The reverse seems more probable. He, s the schemer there, after all.

Of course. Those who are weak enough to think on their own should stay slaves, because they wouldn`t know what to do with freedom. May the obedient little pawns go on, they are so funny.

And what exactly have the spider-kissers accomplished? Living underground? Inventing new ways of torture because they dont have a better way to passtheir time? Covering in fear of the illithids? Allowing Lolth to turn their laughable pointless existences into slavery? Meh. No way a self-respecting dark elf will fall for that.

And what in the Nine Hells is wrong with V wearing a mask? It`s a fashion statement, you know

[quote="Bhaern Quel":96mz60t5][quote:96mz60t5]All priests
of the Masked Lord must be male, with the rare exception of suborned
priests of Lolth. [/quote:96mz60t5][/quote:96mz60t5]

Hmmmm? Which part of the discussion does your quote refer to, hmm? I know of the Masked Traitors. Of course, the masked god of night does not want Lolth to pull the same trick on his faithful, so it is much easier to keep track of a relatively small number of female clerics (who each get personal attention - useful information in dreams, things like that - and generally act as elite spies) than let a lot of female clerics run around. A lazy guy he can sometimes be.

Mikayla · Post by **Mikayla** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:46 pm

Hmmm, thats the best reply you've got? I think we are going in circles now so we'll have to agree to disagree. Have fun praying . . . to Eilistraee! I hope for your sake Vhaerun reappears though.

Aergale · Post by **Aergale** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:11 pm

I thought i already said that turning to another deity is not an option for me. But someone who thinks slaves who live underground can command any respect might simply not understand that not everyone chooses to follow a deity out of fear. But yes, we actually are going in circles, so ciao.

Unen_Stealthfoot · Post by **Unen_Stealthfoot** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:43 pm

[quote="Mikayla":36ipumjj]I think we are going in circles now so we'll have to agree to disagree.[/quote:36ipumjj]

[color=indigo:36ipumjj]Tch, tch... A lame way of escaping a losing argument, Mikayla.

BTW, [i:36ipumjj]what[/i:36ipumjj] exactly have the spider-kissers accomplished, other than beating the hells out of ech other, hmm? Any lasting, profitable conquests, or accomplishments? And when lolth does dissappear, for whatever reason, her entire civilization goes to hell. (so to speak) Have you noticed that when, say, Eilistraee, or Vhaeraun dissapears, (or nearly any other diety) their religions stay balanced and stable.[/color:36ipumjj]

Aergale · Post by **Aergale** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:59 pm

Hey, this discussion has gotten so boring, why revive it? Besides, i have already told what the spiider-kissers have accomplished - Living underground, covering in fear of the illithids, allowing Lolth to turn their laughable pointless existences into slavery, things like that. Sounds great, doesn`t it?

I mean... Mikayla`s arguments are only acceptable to someone who already is a slave of the oversized bug, or is weak enough to become one anyway. What self-respecting heretic would fall for that?

So let us leave the matter at that.

Have fun

Good luck

Unen_Stealthfoot · Post by **Unen_Stealthfoot** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:05 pm

[color=indigo:1l4m9k33]Good point. Now, what were we talking about before?[/color:1l4m9k33]