Since the Chosen of Eilistraee is a religious oriented player group, naturally there is a place to have theological discussions. That is in-game religions; please leave real-world religion out of it. Debate the fine points of a certain dogma, how a church can enforce worship while staying true to its tenets or simply why one deity is better than another one is. All are free to talk about it here.
[quote="Vendrin":2pmtnvtq]I could roll with it, if every other female goddess out there required that of male priests, but they don't.
And I'm fine with the clergy being female dominated, I just don't see anywhere in Eilistraee's dogma it says you have to be a female to understand it, preach and follow it, and why a male should have to understand being a female to be a good priest of hers, when her faith is about bringing the drow back to goodness and the surface.[/quote:2pmtnvtq]
Well, as I said I think it has to do with Ed seeing Eilistraee as a mother goddess; maybe like Maid and Mother rolled into one. To understand that one would have to be in touch with one's feminine self and in a world of magic the easiest way to achieve that is to (temporarily) become female.
And it wouldn't surprise me in the least if there [i:2pmtnvtq]are[/i:2pmtnvtq] other deities (male and female alike) who require that of their priests if allowing other genders at all.
Don't get me wrong, as a player I wonder where the gender equality in Eilistraee's faith went as well. But in truth it was never stated to be there; inferred instead from her being for promoting harmony between all. Perhaps, indeed, she does not advocate gender equality... not yet at least. Not within the clergy at least.
Don't forget, it wasn't long ago that Eilistraee's was a female-only religion. It could be as simple as this being a measure taken so that her female followers can more readily accept the priests. It could just be that this gender inequality is something purely in the minds of her clergy and she, knowing this, has taken this measure to help them (male and female alike) accept before moving to full-fledged gender equality.
In other words; small steps.
Try not to see it is yourself, but as a character living in the world. Try imagine seeing it as someone (male or female) who has had it ingrained in them all their life (which, do not forget, is at least decades long) that women are far superior to men. This touches on why Vhaeraun doesn't promote male superiority as well; as it would be too alien to most drow to comprehend. Eilistraee might just consider this a gentler approach.
On a not-quite-serious note.... There are some men, however, who are far more feminine than any woman I have met. Would they also need to become a woman, maybe to... man up?
The thing about the Pope is not true. The pope is elected from among Cardinals. A normal priest can become a cardinal, but doesn't have to be a Bishop. Although this does not happen nowadays, but is fairly possible. So the pope has to be at least a priest before election and a cardinal (before priesthood he has to have all the sacraments with him, accept of mariage of course). The pope is noone else than the bishop of Rome. It's the lead role of the Roman Church, that gives him the privalage of beeing head of the Roman Catholical Church. Believe me, I know. I've been studying theology for a year. But going back to Eilistraee, I suppose She's one evenement when it comes to drow deities. Wanting to become a cleric of the Mother Godess, gives the candidates a demand to see things from the mothers' side. At least I see things this way. It's only natural. For the means of understanding the other followers to become actually as caring as a mother. I mean She does actually care about her worshipers. Well I suppose it's not that necassery for priestess' to see things the male way. She's here to show the way. Other male followers take care of others the "manly" way.
[quote:2auo8uxc]Hail, fellow scribes of the Realms! This time, Ed responds to Kentinal, re. this: “The number of followers of Eilistraee was rather stunning. You said "I’d say a little more than 22% or so of all drow in Faerûn worship Eilistraee" and "Drow who ONLY worship Eilistraee are almost entirely her clergy, and are probably between 10 and 12 percent of all drow."
There was some discussion about this in some other threads and some were wondering if the percentages perhaps over stated?
It would also be interesting to know percentages of worshipers of other races if you have an estimate. Something along the lines Eilistraee worshipers are <foo> percent Drow, <foo? percent half-elf, <foo> percent fair elf (perhaps seperated into the sub surface races), and so on.
The overall percentages of Drow would appear to make Eilistraee Drow a powerful force in that they would not war amongst themselves and do have at least some surface allies. Is it your vision that in time that Eilistraee will become the primary Drow religion any time in the future?”
That last question prompted Zanan to post: “What a shocking thought. And pretty unlikely, as I doubt that numbers alone make a deity, even though you may get this notion relying solely on the info in F&P. Yet, we'll wait and see. The drow scrolls from further above have yet to caught the archmage's attention.”
Ed replies:
Please, everyone: ALWAYS remember that except for fanatics, clergy, or the oppressed (such as, in this case, many drow in cities dominated by Lolth-worship), all intelligent beings in the Realms worship - - if only in appeasement - - many deities. In other words, that 22 percent (or so) includes drow who also worship other gods (as is obvious from the second percentage I gave).
Now, if some were wondering if I overstated the percentages: Nope. Don’t think that because Lolth-worshipping drow are the “sexiest” to readers, and therefore almost the only sort of drow that feature in WotC fiction and game lore, that they are “the only” drow. They ARE the most aggressive, and ambitious, and successful, yes, and that’s why I think it’s more likely that Lolth will end up as the ‘last drow deity standing,’ not Eilistraee. (In the Underdark, of course, Lolth-worshippers are by far the most numerous and dominant drow.)
The percentages of Eilistraee are high because there are so many surface-dwelling, Eilistraee-worshipping drow. And why not? They don’t suffer the heavy daily losses due to constant warfare, the perils of the Underdark, and so on that the Lolth-worshippers do. Just because published Realmslore neglects them (and don’t forget, gnomes are very numerous but also VERY neglected in Realmslore, as are pixies, sprites, etc. etc.), it doesn’t mean they aren’t numerous and flourishing. I always try to think of the Realms in terms of ecosystems, life cycles, and constantly shifting population strengths. To someone who just reads fiction and sourcebooks, it might seem that “all drow worship Lolth except a few fringe crazies,” but that’s far from the case. If Lolth ever issued strict orders that her followers must never kill any fellow Lolth-worshippers, the numbers of Lolth-worshippers would soar, because right now, they slaughter each other so enthusiastically that they must breed like bunnies to have anyone left alive at all in cities like Menzoberranzan except members of just one surviving house. Think about it.
Yes, surface-dwelling Eilistraee-worshipping drow face attacks from other woodland creatures, Lolth-worshippers, Vhaeraun-worshipping drow, and humans, just to top the list of their foes - - but as you say, they’re not busily daily wiping out each other! So they are numerous, and rapidly growing more so.
However, Kentinal, it’s wrong to think of them as a “powerful force.” Eilistraee-worshiping drow dwell in small, scattered woodland bands all over the temperate Realms and well down into “warm forest” regions, they almost never work together or even communicate with each other all that often, and they have no interest in dominating, growing militarily or politically, and so on. Wargamers tend to think of “like” populations as large, closely-allied or even single-minded conglomerates, but that’s rarely the case.
I’d say Eilistraee’s worshippers are around 88 percent drow, 8 percent half-elf, 3 percent other-than-drow elf, and 1 percent human and other - - but that’s a VERY rough estimate, with the half-elf, elf, and human worshippers all rising in numbers.
So let me state it again: no, the percentages I gave earlier are NOT overstated.
Try to bear in mind that Lolth-worshipping drow daily do either dangerous drudge-work (males) or scheme and train (females), or go on armed patrols in the Underdark - - and often engage in all-out war. Eilistraee-worshipping drow daily go hunting in the woods, patrol woodlands in a stealthy avoid-the-foe manner, gather nuts and berries and other wild edibles, and - - dance. Now I’ve heard of deaths from heart attacks and falls during dancing, but in general it’s gotta be safer than engaging in pitched battle with either monsters or with other drow who have poisons, hand crossbows, spells, and extensive fighting training!
So saith Ed. Demonstrating once again the “long view” of the Realms he takes so effortlessly. For what it’s worth, I agree with him.
And you don’t want to rile me . . . do you?
love to all,
THO[/quote:2auo8uxc]
Well, I can agree with that... except with this bit:
[quote:3rdj7m5t][Lolth-worshipping drow] ARE the most aggressive, and ambitious, and successful, yes, and that’s why I think it’s more likely that Lolth will end up as the ‘last drow deity standing,’ not Eilistraee.[/quote:3rdj7m5t]
I believe that in the end good will prevail. Of course I realize that I might just fervently hope so because of my love for Eilistraee and I realize that this "good" doesn't have to be Eilistraee (though I hope it will be), but I deeply believe that good will win in the end.
Being the most aggressive and ambitious doesn't mean you're the most successful in the longrun; friendship, cooperation, kindness and love will always be more powerful in the end.
What bothers me is that Ed's vission of Eilistraee followers are just a bunch of tree hugging hippies with no unity at all. They are just backgound characters one might encounter like a wolf or goblin. There is always a chance of meeting a good Drow but the good Drow do not know of each other. The Run itself should allow individual groups over time to jnow of locations of other groups as at least a loose network. It clearly stikes me that one group would come to the aid of another if they know about a threat (of course sometimes a warning can not be sent in time). With dream visions the Dark Maiden can communicate with groups faster then a messenger can travel. There should be at least a loose Confederation of groups in a region. Part of the Dogma is no Drow should die (unless doing Evil) so they clearly have an interest in knowing where other Drow are (espcially Good ones) to provide mutual assistance.
Anyway Ed is not the final word, his vision is the start but WofC has final word. For example even in 2nd Eilistraee had Clergy of different races but in Ed's reply he indicates this is a recent change that other races and males were premitted as Clergy.
[color=indigo:1owwwfn8]To quote something I read from Dragonlance: Evil turns in upon itself. Goodly beings support each other. Just got through reading Elminster: the making of a mage, and ha that must have been a shock, being turned into Elmara! At least the Eilistraeen priests know that they are probably going to eventually take female form in advance.[/color:1owwwfn8]
Life before death
Strength before weakness
Journey before destination
I really don't have the will to follow all of this news they put up on Candlekeep so I must ask: I've seen lots of useles things (such as Goblins) being given add-ups of great value.
So how come our dearly beloved tree-huggers are being ignored so much? If they can spare some time on Goblins for criying out loud, why can't they spare it on us?
[color=indigo:37ktjhnm]I know a dm who used to play, and who likes using some of his old chars as npcs. Anyway, he has a demon who can only be harmed by females. He is [b:37ktjhnm][i:37ktjhnm][u:37ktjhnm]completely[/u:37ktjhnm][/i:37ktjhnm][/b:37ktjhnm] immune to any damage dealt in any way by any male being. this includes spells, weapons, fists, and mechanisms triggered by male beings. He also is a shapeshifter and usually takes a small, cute furry form, so that females don't want to hurt him. (the only thing a male can do to hurt him would be to cast a wish spell) The gender-change ability would be useful for my char to help beat him up. Is the gender change and ability, or a spell?[/color:37ktjhnm]
Life before death
Strength before weakness
Journey before destination
[quote="Unen_Stealthfoot":1shginc0][color=indigo:1shginc0]Is the gender change and ability, or a spell?[/color:1shginc0][/quote:1shginc0]
As I understand it it's a spell.
Without us Spider-Kissers you'd have no purpose in life, no way to define yourself, and nothing to hold up as "evil" so you could say you are "good." Without us, you are nothing. Without you...we are the same. Welcome to irrelevancy.
[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":1blcpnlx][quote="Unen_Stealthfoot":1blcpnlx][color=indigo:1blcpnlx]Is the gender change and ability, or a spell?[/color:1blcpnlx][/quote:1blcpnlx]
As I understand it it's a spell.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le[/quote:1blcpnlx]
Well nither Ed or WotC has defined the actual workings yet, I tend to believe it would not be a spell or an ability that the character can ever choose to change gender. My sense of Ed's vision is that it is more like asking the Dark Maiden for the right to change gender and if the male is worthy the gender change is granted. Not something that can be disspelled or otherwise detected that the mind of a male exisits in the body of the female (a supernautral event that is not effected by anti-magic fields or other ways can be reversed until the normal time to return to other gender expires).
Last edited by Bhaern Quel on Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[quote="Mikayla":3iwsio3r]Without us Spider-Kissers you'd have no purpose in life, no way to define yourself, and nothing to hold up as "evil" so you could say you are "good." Without us, you are nothing. Without you...we are the same. [/quote:3iwsio3r]
We Do not need Evil Drow to redeem, we can still hunt, give aid to all in need of food, sheleter and defense. In fact if there were less spider kissers to fight we could aid more against all forms of evil. *wink*
[quote:3iwsio3r]
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