Ed Speaks

Since the Chosen of Eilistraee is a religious oriented player group, naturally there is a place to have theological discussions. That is in-game religions; please leave real-world religion out of it. Debate the fine points of a certain dogma, how a church can enforce worship while staying true to its tenets or simply why one deity is better than another one is. All are free to talk about it here.

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Aergale
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Post by Aergale »

[quote="Mikayla":25ltciuo]

though since the Silence ended they are moving away from Vhaerun according to that text.
[/quote:25ltciuo]

No. They started turning away from Vhaeraun long before the Silence.


[quote="Mikayla":25ltciuo]

Maybe - but I could claim the same thing every time Lolthian forces were defeated to, such as at the Battle of Keeper's Dell/Mithral Hall. Its easy to claim "hey, it wouldn't REALLY happen that way" - but we are stuck with what they write.
[/quote:25ltciuo]

Again, if vhaeraunites were stupid, they would have been destroyed a long time ago. It`s logical. Lolthites have mumbers and are not persecuted by a more numerous group. Still, they sit under the earth, slither before their eight-legged piece of nothing and are incapable of rooting out heretics.

[quote="Mikayla":25ltciuo]
so what? The fact that Eryndlyn is multi-religious (Lolth, Vhaerun and Ghaundaur) and the fact that Sschamath is ruled by secular wizards (though there are still Loltian clerics there) does not detract from the number of Lolthian cities...
[/quote:25ltciuo]

But it shows the drow dont need the spider bitch to succeed. In fact, they are much better off without her - trade fluorishes, there is no infighting. In fact, if it wasn`t for Lolth, such cities would exist in The Night Above.
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Post by Mikayla »

Aergale:
[quote:x2jguxnp] Again, if vhaeraunites were stupid, they would have been destroyed a long time ago. It`s logical. Lolthites have mumbers and are not persecuted by a more numerous group. Still, they sit under the earth, slither before their eight-legged piece of nothing and are incapable of rooting out heretics.[/quote:x2jguxnp]

I don't recall saying Vhaerunites were stupid - I only said they were not as successful or as accomplished as the Lolthians. Lolthians are have numbers - now - but if you go back and read Lost Empires of Faerun you will see that the Dark Elves were initially worshipping Vhaerun and Ghaunadaur as their primary gods, then Lolth, using Wendonai, seduced them away.

The fact that Lolth has greater numbers than Vhaerun now is because she is a stronger diety whose followers have been more successful than Vhaerun's. As far as the what the Lolthians are capable of - they have done a lot more than the Vhaerunites.

Oh - and the Vhaerunite Jaezred have their own problems "rooting out heretics" as it states in the Web Enchancement: "Although the slave population encompasses most of the secret clerics of the Spider Queen residing in the City of Wyrmshadows, Lolth is said to have a handful of devotees among the [b:x2jguxnp][i:x2jguxnp]zar'ithra'rin[/i:x2jguxnp][/b:x2jguxnp] as well." Lolth's faithful have clearly infiltrated the Vhaerun-worshippers of Chaulssin.

Aergale:
[quote:x2jguxnp] But it shows the drow dont need the spider bitch to succeed. In fact, they are much better off without her - trade fluorishes, there is no infighting. In fact, if it wasn`t for Lolth, such cities would exist in The Night Above.[/quote:x2jguxnp]

Perhaps - but I never said the drow needed Lolth to succeed - I only said her and her followers were more successful and powerful than Vhaerun and his followers - and thats the truth of it. Vhaerun started out in a good position, but over the millenia, he lost his hold and now the bulk of the drow population follows Lolth. And they have accomplished a lot more than the Vhaerun followers. And you can say "if it wasn't for Lolth" but the reality is, we have to say "if it wasn't for the authors." Its the authors of the game materials and books who make these decisions, not the relative "power" of the "gods" - they are creatures of fiction. And at the moment, regardless of what you would like to think about Vhaerun, the author's writings indicate that Lolth and her followers are much, much stronger.

P.S.:
Aergale:
[quote:x2jguxnp]Mikayla wrote:

[quote:x2jguxnp]
though since the Silence ended they are moving away from Vhaerun according to that text.[/quote:x2jguxnp]


No. They started turning away from Vhaeraun long before the Silence.[/quote:x2jguxnp]

Um, yes. The fact that some may have started turning away before does not change the fact that post-silence, they have increased the seperation - here is the quote from the web enhancement under the "Church of Vhaerun" entry in the "power groups" section: [b:x2jguxnp]"In the wake of Lolth's return, the Patron Fathers have moved to further distance themselves from the hierarchy of the Masked Lord, seeking to side-step the possibility of open warfare between the Spider Queen and her son."[/b:x2jguxnp] So much for all of Vhaerun's followers being faithful to the end.
AKA Sheyreiza Valakasha, Yathtallar d'Lolth, Princess of the Demonweb Pits, aka Ghenni'salla Tlabbar, aka L'olath'anon, the Dark Flower, aka the Valsharess of ALFA, aka ... well ... you get the picture. :devil:
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Post by Sancha »

[quote="Mikayla":1u74e140]Sancha:
[quote:1u74e140]What went down in the WotSQ books was NOT what anyone could honestly call a 'best effort.'

Sorry. They way they wrote that, it was as if Vhaeraun has only one follower, a half-shadow dragon assassin, and this is clearly not the case according to all the sourcebooks.
[/quote:1u74e140]

If you are going to start discounting the novels, then I get to do that as well - indeed, if we start throwing out what happens in the novels, we can make up whatever we like about the gods. You may not like what happened, but thats the way WotC's authors wrote it. The attempts on Menzo and Ched were the best the Jaezred Chaulssin could do - and presumably, Vhaerun's fight against Selevetarm in which Vhaerun lost his hand was the best he could do, and the priest of Vhaerun who summoned him and who was later killed by the party of Lolth worshippers was doing the best he could. Thats the way it was written.
[/quote:1u74e140]

Uhm... I never said or implied I was discounting the novels.

I only pointed out that no one can truthfully claim that what occured in those novels was the 'best effort of Vhaeraun's followers.'

This is supported by all the second AND third edition sourcebooks. According to the cannon material, Vhaeraun has a great many worshippers, and his church has many far-reaching and co-operating organizations. In those novels we saw one small tiny assassin guild, who did not have support from the Church itself and left all of it's efforts to ONE single assassin, who failed.

That does not qualify as the best efforts of his followers. It seems his church, it's organizations and his massive amounts of followers did not even appear in the book. So how could it have been their best effort, when they have not yet even taken part in the War of the Spider Queen? ;)




[quote="Mikayla":1u74e140]
As noted, it was the best effort of the Jaezred Chaulssin, whose organization is explained in great detail in the latest Web Enchancement on the WotC site. They are, at least nominally, Vhaerun followers, though since the Silence ended they are moving away from Vhaerun according to that text.
[/quote:1u74e140]

Your correction is accepted. Yes, it was the best effort of the Jaezred Chaulssin guild.

Which I'm sure we BOTH could agree was somewhat pathetic.

[quote="Mikayla":1u74e140]
Guallidurth I believe - and I never claimed Menzoberranzan was a large city as the drow go.
[/quote:1u74e140]

Then why was it always the first mentioned example whenever you brought up the grand large cities of the drow? It implied you believe it to be a large city.



[quote:1u74e140]Another far larger and more successful ancient drow city that is often overlooked by people is Eryndlyn. It has three or four times the population of Drow as Menzoberanzan does. Menzo's population is measoured in tens of thousands. Eryndlyn's population (and several other drow cities) are measured in HUNDREDS of thousands. [/quote:1u74e140]

[quote="Mikayla":1u74e140]
Not anymore - since the switch from Second Edition to Third Edition all those over-inflated second edition population figures have been adjusted downwards, including Eryndlyn.
[/quote:1u74e140]

Can you please point me to what 3rd edition book and what page within that book shows population figures for Eryndlyn? Is it new? If it exists, I will have to go get it. The Underdark book does not give any indication that it is a smaller city than it used to be, or give any info on it's population. It had less info on the city than the second edition books had.



[quote="Mikayla":1u74e140]
So what?
[/quote:1u74e140]

So what? Well, you were claiming that only the followers of Lolth had founded and built up grand, large, civilizations in the Underdark. I pointed out one that was not founded and built up by Lolthites, though they are working hard to destroy it....


[quote="Mikayla":1u74e140]
[quote:1u74e140]Sshamath as well has done JUST fine without rulership by the Spiderkissers. It is the pre-eminent maker and market of magic items in all of Faeurun. No direct thanks to Lloth. Wink[/quote:1u74e140]

Again, so what? The fact that Eryndlyn is multi-religious (Lolth, Vhaerun and Ghaundaur) and the fact that Sschamath is ruled by secular wizards (though there are still Loltian clerics there) does not detract from the number of Lolthian cities - Menzoberranzan, Sschindylrn (sp?), Undrek-Thoz, Guallidurth, Karsouthyl (sp again?), etc.
[/quote:1u74e140]


So what? I never said that they detract from the number of Lolthian cities or that the Llothites do not have cities. I merely said that your assertation that [i:1u74e140]only[/i:1u74e140] the Llothites had such cities and that other drow only have campsites was in error.



[quote="Mikayla":1u74e140]
Still, after all of that, the settlements and accomplishments of Lolth's followers far, far, far exceed those of Vhaerun's followers or Eilistraee's followers or Ghaundaur's followers or Kiaransalee's followers. I am not saying that Vhaerun's followers never accomplished anything, or Eilistraee's, but they have not accomplished nearly as much nor have they been nearly as successful as Lolth's followers. Its just the way it is, even if you don't like the way things are written.[/quote:1u74e140]

Yes, they certainly do exceed those of the followers of the other faiths. I accept your changed standing as true. The original insinuation that none of them even HAVE accomplishments was, on the other hand, utter hogwash.

(When did I say I don't like the way it is written? Could you please stop shoving words in my mouth and thoughts in my head? kthxbye)
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Post by Sancha »

[quote="Aergale":3o8zbmji]
But it shows the drow dont need the spider bitch to succeed. In fact, they are much better off without her - trade fluorishes, there is no infighting. In fact, if it wasn`t for Lolth, such cities would exist in The Night Above.[/quote:3o8zbmji]

In fact, if it wasn`t for Lolth, such cities would [b:3o8zbmji]still[/b:3o8zbmji] exist in The Night Above.

They once did.

Including the greatest of them all... which was full of both Vhaeraunites.... [i:3o8zbmji]and[/i:3o8zbmji] Eilistraeens. :)


[/b]
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Post by Mikayla »

Sancha:
[quote:2ri8xh27]Mikayla wrote:

[quote:2ri8xh27]Not anymore - since the switch from Second Edition to Third Edition all those over-inflated second edition population figures have been adjusted downwards, including Eryndlyn.
[/quote:2ri8xh27]

Can you please point me to what 3rd edition book and what page within that book shows population figures for Eryndlyn? Is it new? If it exists, I will have to go get it. The Underdark book does not give any indication that it is a smaller city than it used to be, or give any info on it's population. It had less info on the city than the second edition books had.
[/quote:2ri8xh27]

Sure - in the book Underdark, page 148, entry for "Eryndlyn," second sentence reads: "[b:2ri8xh27]About half again as large as Menzoberranzan, Eryndlyn [/b:2ri8xh27]is a mercantile powerhouse and a significant threat to all other realms nearby." Menzo's population is a little over 30,000 (free and slaves) so that makes Eryndlyn's population approximately 45,000.


As for the rest - my point is that Lolthians have accomplished much more than the Vhaerunites - you've pointed out one city that the Vhaerunites have a piece of (in fact, in Underdark, it notes that in Eryndlyn, the Lolthians are as strong as the Vhaerunites and the Ghaunadaur followers put together which is what has kept them alive since Lolth's silence). As for Sschamath, its not Lolthian now, but it was founded by Lolthians.

Again - the Lolthians have done much, much more than the Vhareunites.


Sancha:
[quote:2ri8xh27](When did I say I don't like the way it is written? Could you please stop shoving words in my mouth and thoughts in my head? kthxbye)[/quote:2ri8xh27]

Um, how about here:
[quote:2ri8xh27]Sorry. They way they wrote that, it was as if Vhaeraun has only one follower, a half-shadow dragon assassin, and this is clearly not the case according to all the sourcebooks.
[/quote:2ri8xh27]

I'm not shoving words in your mouth, I am just responding to what you write.
AKA Sheyreiza Valakasha, Yathtallar d'Lolth, Princess of the Demonweb Pits, aka Ghenni'salla Tlabbar, aka L'olath'anon, the Dark Flower, aka the Valsharess of ALFA, aka ... well ... you get the picture. :devil:
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Post by Sancha »

Ah! I took the line that it was half-again as large as Menzoberanzan to be talking about the SIZE of the city itself (its area), rather than it's population.


[quote:2d563b72]Um, how about here:
Quote:
Sorry. They way they wrote that, it was as if Vhaeraun has only one follower, a half-shadow dragon assassin, and this is clearly not the case according to all the sourcebooks.


I'm not shoving words in your mouth, I am just responding to what you write.[/quote:2d563b72]

Sorry about that. I thought we were talking about two entirely different topics there. Your comment that I don't like the way it was written was in reference to talking about the accomplishments and success or lack thereof of various drow religions. I have no problems with the way the canon material is written in that regard.

The above quote of mine saying 'the way they wrote it' was in regard to the way they portrayed the church of Vhaeraun in the War of the Spider Queen novels.

In my mind, those were two seperate topics. Sorry. :|
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Post by Unen_Stealthfoot »

:zzz: [color=darkred:15eay4dh]*snore*[/color:15eay4dh]
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Post by Argoth »

That's right.
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Post by Unen_Stealthfoot »

[color=darkred:3oumdqaq]*wakes up dramatically* Huh? What?[/color:3oumdqaq]
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Post by Argoth »

Nothing dear, go back to bed.
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Post by Unen_Stealthfoot »

>:( :p
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Post by Noraimund »

Lolth has been more successful because she has a larger power base to start off with, and such things increase exponentially. I've Lolth is by far the most powerful and agressive deity, and so reaps the rewards of that. And not to knock Vhaeraunites, but, they have more vested interested in the Night Above, and as such, don't really have any major cities.

I know that attempts are being made to assimilate the Elven Court, but, thanks to our friends the Eilistraeens, a minor speedbump with eight legs, claws, fangs, a big sword, and diamond hard skin has been delaying efforts, so we're mostly a nomadic church.

Another thing that has always bugged me about the Promenade....88 Selvetarmites came within inches of taking it. What if say, five hundred lolthites, a thousand slaves, and a deep dragon bonded together to attack the compound? Why has it lasted so long? I know in my story my characters are working on remedying that :P And it light of recent events, we're looking for some assistance from the dirty spiderkissers.
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Post by Unen_Stealthfoot »

[color=darkred:3sp84wjs]The Promenade is in Undermountain and therefore at least partially under Halaster's protection. Besides, he hates evil drow elves.[/color:3sp84wjs]
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Post by Bhaern Quel »

A breif but new comment from Ed
[quote:2owa6eup]Various drow communities have various words for psionics and psionic actions, but the two most prevalent drow words for psionics are “ulsharyorn” and “ulzakzigh” (the component elements of both of which should be fairly obvious), with “erress” being an older drow word for psionics (still used by clergy of Eilistraee).
[/quote:2owa6eup]

Of perhaps of some interest for the translator, alas not anything concerning 4th Ed. The question asked was in context of 2nd Edition (and likely valid for 3rd.).
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Post by Shir'le E. Illios »

Thanks Bhaern, added them to the database (marked as 'official').

And glad to see that for Ed Eilistraee is still around (even if it is 2nd edition).


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