The Death of Eilistraee

Since the Chosen of Eilistraee is a religious oriented player group, naturally there is a place to have theological discussions. That is in-game religions; please leave real-world religion out of it. Debate the fine points of a certain dogma, how a church can enforce worship while staying true to its tenets or simply why one deity is better than another one is. All are free to talk about it here.

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T'rissonia
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The Death of Eilistraee

Post by T'rissonia »

Although most of us (if not all) prefer to ignore the Ascendancy of the Last (with good reason, no doubt) and disallow it from affecting our game play, I couldn't help but realize a possible loop-hole...

In the last book they justified Eilsitraee's death by proclaiming that, "There is no further need for Eilistraee. The willing were saved, the unwilling cast down. It is time for the dark elves to return to Arvandor."

But hold on a minute. It wasn't like Eilistraee was created solely to save the fallen drow. As a matter of fact, wasn't Eilistraee around before the drow were even tainted? She was a love-child of Corellon and Lloth as well as a goddess in her own right. Once the drow were "defiled" that was when she took it upon herself to become their beacon of redemption.

So, wouldn't that be more like a cop-out of a explanation - of plot? Had Eilistraee's existence been reduced for that purpose even though she had meaning to her existence before it?

Maybe (hopefully) because of this realization she, in fact, isn't dead after all. But if I'm wrong, then all I would have to say is 'what a terrible shame.'
Last edited by T'rissonia on Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“You have turned for me my mourning into dancing: you have put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness; To the end that my glory may sing praises to you, and not be silent."
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Post by Talwyn Aureliano »

Well Smedmen & WoTC left themselves a loophople for a possible resurection for Eilistraee at the end of the Lady Penitant series in that her realm continued to exisit even though she was killed [by her own weapon I may add] by Lloth. Correllon also blocked Lloth from absorbing her realm I think? [I may be wrong I'll have to re-read the last chapter again .. unnghh :bored: ]

My own belief is that they they will bring back Eilistraee at some point once their new 4th Ed time line/setting is established and they are in need of a new plot/story line to do with the drow/elves etc.

However, tha will probably be a few years away. It took over 5 years or so for Bane to return in real time and he was convinvingly killed by Torm. Also gods being resurected by Ao and others is nothing new either.

This is still though a sore point for us here. The whole premise of the last book was utter shit - drow being tainted by demon blood etc - well it's been discussed in depth in other topics quite throroughly and almost all of the fans decried the book and the way WoTC handled it. All you have to do is head on over to Candlekeep.com and read through the forums there and see the visable reaction to the end of Eilistraee and you'll know that the wankers at WoTC really screwed the pooch on that plot line.

Even from an economic stand point, if I was a bean counter at HASBRO, I'd be asking who pulled the trigger on one of Forgotten Realms more popular properties because books that included stories about the drow & Eilistraee sold very well. Talk about killing a goose that lays golden eggs! >:(

[sigh]

Anyway, the whole saga and they way it was handled still annoys me intensely and that's why I hate WoTC and wish them to spend eternity writhing in torment in the abyss, enduring unimaginable unending pain while being forced to listen to Barry Manilowe - now that's torment! :devil:
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Post by Talwyn Aureliano »

Ok, your post got me thinking and I went back to Candlekeep to do a bit of trolling and found this:


althen artren posts:
“In the fiction, we see instances of prophecy or future omens through the eyes of characters and deities having foreknowledge of events. How have used this in light of deities having "all-knowing" sphere of expanded awareness. Is seeing the future unrelated to the Weave? I ask because I think about Blackstaff and his visions and the female good drow god whose name I cannot spell (stupid lack of spellcheck on this forum).”

Ed replies:

In the Realms, gods “dream” of various possible futures; they CANNOT infallibly see the future, though many have from time to time claimed otherwise. “Seeing the future” (really visualizing various possible futures, somewhat like E.E. ‘Doc’ Smith’s Arisians had a Visualization of the Cosmic All in the classic Lensman series of sf novels) is tied to being able to sense and “read” the flows of natural energies, something of the thoughts of other intelligent beings, and one’s own judgments and assessments of power struggles and factions and other factors (and how they’ll affect each other in the future). The Weave is one way to access those energy flows, but there are many others.
[b:1nx4zoq9]So NO god can see the future with complete clarity and reliability. There is some evidence that while certain deities [u:1nx4zoq9](perhaps including Eilistraee)[/u:1nx4zoq9] can see their own ultimate fates fairly well, others cannot, by their very nature (Mask or Leira, who cannot help but deceive even themselves, or Silvanus, who can never be certain whether he is seeing this next natural cycle of seasons, or another cycle from the past or future) or due to their sanity or lack of same (Cyric).[/b:1nx4zoq9]
I’m going to add my standard caution here: mortals (yes, that includes game designers, gamers, and Realms fiction writers) can never be sure that ANYTHING written about the gods is true, or anything approaching the “whole truth.” We simply have no way of knowing how accurate anything we think we “know” about the god is, because the gods deceive us, their priests and servitor creatures deceive us, and even what we directly and personally witness, we may not properly understand (or even realize we’re not seeing all of it, or understanding it correctly).
I designed the Realms this way, as I’ve explained elsewhere before, because if predestination (as in: reliable prophecies, such as “You are the One! The One foretold, who will rise out of the humble village of X with seven fingers on his left hand, and blah blah blah”) exists, heroism goes out the window. You can’t take credit for your adventuring successes, because the gods (or someone) decided on the script long beforehand, and you just followed it, even if you didn’t realize you were following it, or someone [even a god] denies you were following it. You can’t have the prophecies work AND have true freedom of action, randomness, and therefore personal achievement.
I know many authors (and game designers) gloss over this or refuse to think the logic through (or accept the logic), but I don’t. (And it’s frankly always puzzled me that if I could reason this through and discuss it with my parents and others at age seven, long before there was a D&D game or a published Realms, why some other, much older folks don’t “get it.” I’ve taken it to several weighty professional philosophers over the years and asked for logic chains that escape this conundrum, and the only way any of them can see out of it, apart from Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, is to deny any casuality [that cause and effect relationships exist] - - which is a stand that a philosopher may be able to take, but the rest of us, who have to live in the real world, can’t cling to unless we leave “common sense” behind.)


:/
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Post by Bhaern Quel »

Well to your one question, yes indeed Eilistraee existed long before the Descent. She however was weakened by the Dark Disaster.

After the deity battle (one of many) she requested exile in order to assume an additional role as being a beacon of hope.

She was a deity in her own right before then.

Lisa when writing for the WotSG series did not know Eilistraee at all. I have not seen any evidence she improved her knowledge much.

All in all what is written in a Novel is not good canon at all.
Last edited by Bhaern Quel on Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Argoth »

That said...

[img:hlyq6vrh]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o260 ... 00x500.jpg[/img:hlyq6vrh]

Ok, I know, demotivational posters don't work in other words then English... The sign on the bottom is "Quantum physics. Simple and cheerful."
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Re: The Death of Eilistraee

Post by Dostrealt »

[quote="T'rissonia":310b46hn]In the last book they justified Eilsitraee's death by proclaiming that, "There is no further need for Eilistraee. The willing were saved, the unwilling cast down. It is time for the dark elves to return to Arvandor."[/quote:310b46hn]

This does not add up. If Eilistraee had "served her purpose" (i.e. saved every drow that was salvagable) she would no longer need to be associated with the Anti-Seldarine.

If Eilistraee sucessfully led the good drow to the surface, I would expect her father's curse to be lifted off of those drow (and off of her too).

I would expect that sort of plot-arc, to end up with a new race of elves that had an apperance somewhere between drow and surface elves. I would expect them to be resold as something like "cave elves" and live a very similar lifestyle to hill dwarves, so that they retain their underground skills, but spend a large amount of their lives on the surface.

As for Eilistraee herself, if she redeemed every drow that could be redeemed, I would expect her to take back her family name and be known as Eilistraee Larethian. I would expect her to to join the Seldarine and to be the goddess in charge of the "saved drow".

Essentially the goddess would be the parole officer who was there to prevent Lolth from regaining control over the reformed drow.

But even this is not what I would have wanted. I personally, think that Eilistraee is there to save individual drow from being doomed to spend their afterlife in the Abyss and helping their souls to get to a place in Arvandor. Taking her away from the drow means that they are written off as having no ability to be anything other than evil. This is just far too two-dimentional to be enjoyable. It is far more fun if the bad-guys [b:310b46hn]can[/b:310b46hn] choose between Team Good and Team Evil and pick Team Evil.
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Post by Narsia Ny'Dhun »

I actually like Barry Manilowe, Tal...

I have nothing to add, save that I've boycotted FR for good. I have no reason to buy their books anymore, since Eilistraee was, is, and probably will always be my only real interest in D&D. With her gone, well, what's the point? And I think we're all teasing ourselves about the possibilities or her being revived when we already know she was ganked as part of FR's dumbing down to make it even more like D&D for Dummies by cutting the number of deities by 3/4. We gotta face facts and just make the best of what we had going before this whole mess happened. It's too much of a headache to try and make sense of it now.

And to Dostrealt, that's exactly what happened. At the end all the good drow who survived the slaughter got turned back into brown skinned dark elves with a big f^%#in' bullseye on their backs for the Llothian drow to follow and all other elves to spit on. Yeah that was bloody brilliant. And with no central deity to guide them no less.
Harl l'drathir udos alure, Eilistraee lu'Anixiel ulu kyorl udossa zuch
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Post by Talwyn Aureliano »

[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":28sy78ld]I actually like Barry Manilowe, Tal...
[/quote:28sy78ld]

Actually I don't mind a bit of teh old Barry myself Narsia ;)

I just used his name as a throwaway punchline 8)

And in that spirit, I came up with this which is dedicated to you!
[please excuse the poetic liberties I've taken ;) ]

[sung to the tune of Copacobana]


[color=red:28sy78ld][i:28sy78ld]Her name was Narsia, she was a dark elf,
She had silvery blonde hair and wore a dress that made men stare,
She’d do magic and cast off dweomers,
Across the realms she’d dance, inspiring poets and singers
She was young, very pretty but oh so lonely
And she wanted more…

At the Chosen, Chosen of the Dark Dancer
The hottest spot west of Myth Dranor
At the Chosen, Chosen of the Dark Dancer
Intrigue and passion are always high fashion
At the Chosen, Chosen of the Dark Dancer

His name was Talwyn, he was a Tormtar
He’d came into the Chosen and saw Narsia dancing there
And when she had finished he called her over
She sauntered over there, casually tossing her lustrous hair
And then the banter grew, chemistry sparked between the two
There were glances and hand holding
But who kissed who?

At the Chosen, Chosen of the Dark Dancer
The hottest spot west of Myth Dranor
At the Chosen, Chosen of the Dark Dancer
Intrigue and passion are always high fashion
At the Chosen, Chosen of the Dark Dancer

Her name is Narsia, she is a dark elf
But 30 years have gone by since Eilistraee was alive,
Now it’s 4th Ed and there’s a spellplague
Still in the dress she always wears and her lustrous silvery hair
She sits there so refined and drinks herself half blind
She lost her goddess and her lover
And now she’s lost her mind!

At the Chosen, Chosen of the Dark Dancer
The hottest spot west of Myth Dranor
At the Chosen, Chosen of the Dark Dancer
Intrigue and passion are always high fashion
At the Chosen, Chosen of the Dark Dancer

[Chosen] don’t fall in love
Chosen of the Dark Dancer[/i:28sy78ld][/size:28sy78ld][/color:28sy78ld]
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Narsia Ny'Dhun
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Post by Narsia Ny'Dhun »

...I have a very odd mix of love and hate for you right now, Tal.

That being said...that was creative!
Harl l'drathir udos alure, Eilistraee lu'Anixiel ulu kyorl udossa zuch
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Post by Talwyn Aureliano »

:D


I hope there's more love than hate Narsia :love:

And in that spirit I offer you this:

[cheesey and very cheeky impish grin :D ]



[youtube:2j50iy6n]rXeIF6Qk7DM[/youtube:2j50iy6n]
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T'rissonia
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Re: The Death of Eilistraee

Post by T'rissonia »

[quote="Dostrealt":261g85rr]As for Eilistraee herself, if she redeemed every drow that could be redeemed, I would expect her to take back her family name and be known as Eilistraee Larethian. I would expect her to to join the Seldarine and to be the goddess in charge of the "saved drow".

Essentially the goddess would be the parole officer who was there to prevent Lolth from regaining control over the reformed drow..[/quote:261g85rr]

Not only that, but what about all the other several thousands of drow still in the Underdark that have yet to hear the name of Eilistraee, have yet to get the chance of experiencing her warmth? Is the author of this book saying that the Dark Maiden truly saved all there was to save? I find that preposterous. As long as there are still drow in existence, then there is still hope for them. Was that not the creed of Eilistraee and her priestesses? If so then this book completely contradicted that and is practically saying that there's only a certain number of seats reserved for her faithful in the afterlife. I, for one, refuse to believe this.
“You have turned for me my mourning into dancing: you have put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness; To the end that my glory may sing praises to you, and not be silent."
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Post by Narsia Ny'Dhun »

No, dear, Smedman isn't implying that. Wizards of the Coast is. Understand she was given a large number of guidelines she had to follow when writing this book, it was in essence a commission that she had little if any control over. Whatever artistic licenses she was given, she was given for the purpose of making it make sense on some level...or something, I don't know. I just don't think the blame rests with the woman who wrote the books, she was doing her job.
Harl l'drathir udos alure, Eilistraee lu'Anixiel ulu kyorl udossa zuch
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Post by Talwyn Aureliano »

T'rssonia, your sentiment and incredulity concerning the way in which the Lady Penitant series was handled was almost universaly expressed by just about all the fans who enjoyed reading aout Eilistraee. It was a travesty and one can infer that new guard at WoTC decided to off her and butcher FR into the abysmal campaign we see expressed as 4E.

Narsia is right in saying that Smedman was only doing her job. She is a professional writer and her client, WoTC, instructed her to write a trilogy in which the end would be the death of Eilistraee and the destruction of her most powerful priestess and the slaughter of most of her followers. I can hardly see this as a victory by any stretch of the imagination and the bullshit explaination of racial/blood taint dividing the drow between those who would become "good" dark elves and those who would remain drow and therefore evil has been condemned as complete bollocks. It is insulting to the fans intelligence and again shows the complete contempt and utter indifference that WoTC have displayed to FR and specifically the drow & Eilistraee.

Again, I only wish that I had enough cash to buy D&D off WoTC and restore the realms to what they used to be.
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Post by NyssaRilynana »

Random loophole for the Return of Eilistraee....bear with me here.

When a god/dess in Faerun dies or is killed or somehow ceases to exist they leave behind the dead power....the remnants of the powers they once had. Any being can channel this power and use it...perhaps to bring back the goddess in a daring sacrifice or something. :D
Alu xuil lil dumoasen del lil quar''valsharess
Go with the blessings of the goddess

~Nyssa Vasafay Rilynana~
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Post by Aylstra Illianniis »

Tal, I'm in total agreement with you there. I haven't even read any of the books yet, and now I'm not sure I want to. I enjoyed the War of the Spider Queen series, although the end was a bit disappointing. But to hear all this tripe? As CANON??!! AAARRRGGHH!!!!
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