Eilistraee and love/lovers

Since the Chosen of Eilistraee is a religious oriented player group, naturally there is a place to have theological discussions. That is in-game religions; please leave real-world religion out of it. Debate the fine points of a certain dogma, how a church can enforce worship while staying true to its tenets or simply why one deity is better than another one is. All are free to talk about it here.

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Eilistraee and love/lovers

Post by Irennan »

Since today is Valentine's day, a thought crossed my mind. We know that ''Eilistraee is happiest when she looks on bards singing or composing, craftsmen at work, [i:1y6dpv6v]lovers[/i:1y6dpv6v], or acts of kindness'', so I was wondering if it would be reasonable for some of her followers to also worship her as a patroness of lovers, among the other things (note that I'm not suggesting that she would be a goddess of love, just that some drow may see her as a protectress and patroness of such an emotion).

The drow pantheon lacks such a deity because love is not an important part in Lolthites' life (and perhaps Vhaerunites' as well), it is taboo. However love is important to followers of Eilistraee and for the goddess herself, and IMO it's not a far fetched assumption that drow who leave their previous life behind could see in the Dark Dancer a protectress of such a feeling, which plays a huge role in helping the drow to change their perspective of the world and to find the happiness that they were denied.

It would also make thematically sense, not only because of Eilistraee's ideals and teachings (which do indeed imply love for life), but also because of her role as mother-goddess of the drow people, deity of beauty and -according to Ed- also somewhat a goddess of female fertility (even if that aspect never made through TSR's censorship). Helping her children grow and flourish in a hostile world would definitely also include protecting and encouraging lovers, after all (and teaching the drow all the joyful emotions that they have forgotten).

Perhaps Eilistraeens even have some ''day of lovers'' or some related celebration...

So, what do you think?

I've also forwarded this question to Ed over CK, I'll repost it here when he finds the time to answer.
Last edited by Irennan on Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eilistraee as drow goddess of love/lovers (among the other things)?

Post by Leema Har'gachi »

+1 for Eilistraee as a goddess of sex and love! YES! YES! [url:20rxltca]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ALwKeSEYs[/url:20rxltca] talking about putting a whole new meaning to sexy goddess.

But serious, Irennan I agree with you and can't wait to hear Lord Ed Greenwoods reply. and On that note I leave you with this.

[url:20rxltca]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8u7px_GzWQ[/url:20rxltca]

ALL HAIL THE LADY SILVERHAIR!!!!! AND GODDESS PORN!... sorry had to get that out of my system :( .
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Re: Eilistraee as drow goddess of love/lovers (among the other things)?

Post by Bhaern Quel »

Well I do agree goddess of lovers certainly can fit well, the sharing of joy, compassion and affection.
I would hesitate calling her a goddess of sex as part of her portfolio. While lovers clearly will enjoy sex as part of their love, sex is not always have an element of love or caring. There are other deities in the Realms that clearly hold portfolios of sex.
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Re: Eilistraee as drow goddess of love/lovers (among the other things)?

Post by Leema Har'gachi »

[quote="Bhaern Quel":24f2p22k]Well I do agree goddess of lovers certainly can fit well, the sharing of joy, compassion and affection.
I would hesitate calling her a goddess of sex as part of her portfolio. While lovers clearly will enjoy sex as part of their love, sex is not always have an element of love or caring. There are other deities in the Realms that clearly hold portfolios of sex.[/quote:24f2p22k]
indeed. I just could help myself there, sorry.
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Re: Eilistraee as drow goddess of love/lovers (among the other things)?

Post by Irennan »

Well, not a deity of sex, but in the same reply in which Ed described Eilistraee as a mother-goddess, he also hinted that she has influence over female fertility.
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Re: Eilistraee as drow goddess of love/lovers (among the other things)?

Post by Kaote Bruchedaine »

Not to take a pot shot at optimism, but do we have any canon support for such a thing? The only thing I can recall from any source material that would honor this is the fact that Veladorn actually had a husband. Beyond that I can think of no action that supports this. Sure she doesn't punish as Lolth does.. But a lack of a negative isn't the presence of a positive.
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Re: Eilistraee as drow goddess of love/lovers (among the other things)?

Post by Irennan »

Nothing that really establishes Eilistraee as goddess of love/lovers (that's why I asked for some speculations). However, we have the passage from ''Demihuman Deities'' saying that she is happiest when looking -among some other things- at lovers, that got me thinking. We also have Ed's words about Eilistraee mothering the drow and helping them grow and flourish in a hostile surface world, as well as having traits of a goddess of fertility. As I said -considering this-, Eilistraee as a patroness of lovers would be thematically fitting for the reasons that I gave in the OP.

When Ed replies to my question over CK, I'll repost his words here (and remember that -by contract- everything Ed says is canon, unless WotC comes in and specifically says that it is not).
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Re: Eilistraee as drow goddess of love/lovers (among the other things)?

Post by Kaote Bruchedaine »

I would think that would more lead to her including Maternal desires in her portfolio than love. The same way any mother smiles and perhaps even frets a little when a favored child is taking the next step in a major courtship. After all in D&D it seems those that include love in their portfolio seem to also include things like swingers parties and orgies. Smiling fondly upon those that find love is a far cry difference from the deities that encourage their followers to make/fake love anytime a hat drops. Yes this sounds like a hyperbole but from all I've seen that extreme actually seems to be the norm among the various 'love' centric deities.

I do not oppose her taking interest in the success of love, having a holiday, or perhaps even adding her own personal touches to various festivals or celebrations. Even something as simple as a statue or religious icon beginning to hum along with the music would be a pretty big deal to come of us.

But to add love to her portfolio, especially in the way it's been handled with other deity, would damage my opinion of her.
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Re: Eilistraee as drow goddess of love/lovers (among the other things)?

Post by Irennan »

I didn't mean to add love to Eilistraee's portfolio (in fact I specified this in my question to Ed), I meant that drow may also see her as a protectress of lovers, and --given her theme-- she may actually be also that (just like she does with bards, musicians, dancers and so on). Adding something to her portfolio would likely cause conflict with other deities, due to the stupid (IMO) way this stuff works in the FR, and that's the last thing I'd like to see.

On a side note, in FR deities of Love (like Sune/Sharess) embody it in all its forms, sex is just one aspect. Nonetheless I have to agree with you on Sune's portrayal, it often came off as quite superficial and vain.
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Re: Eilistraee as drow goddess of love/lovers (among the other things)?

Post by Shir'le E. Illios »

I've always imagined that at the end of particularly big feasts (particularly such as celebrated after a High Hunt) the revellers (who, remember, haven't been wearing a whole heck of a lot) might tend to pair off in groups of two and three and find a private spot in the woods for some more intimate celebrating.

but as for Eilistraee as a goddess of love... I think it's probably more that her drow followers are often coming back from Lolthite worship and are thus discovering all kinds of emotions and feeling that they would have suppressed under the Spider's rule (probably even exaggerating them as they wouldn't quite know what to do with these new feelings). And in that they would see Eilistraee as the goddess symbolic for awakening such emotions, including love, in them. That might lead followers who feel a particular strong connection to emotions such as love to, in part, start seeing her as a goddess of love. But I don't think that necessarily makes her one.

As such more a goddess of bringing drow back to a certain sense of positive emotions than as a goddess of love.

In the end you don't have to be a goddess of love to smile on lovers. :)


Love -x-x-x-

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Re: Eilistraee and love/lovers

Post by Irennan »

[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":392lnwud]I've always imagined that at the end of particularly big feasts (particularly such as celebrated after a High Hunt) the revellers (who, remember, haven't been wearing a whole heck of a lot) might tend to pair off in groups of two and three and find a private spot in the woods for some more intimate celebrating.

but as for Eilistraee as a goddess of love... I think it's probably more that her drow followers are often coming back from Lolthite worship and are thus discovering all kinds of emotions and feeling that they would have suppressed under the Spider's rule (probably even exaggerating them as they wouldn't quite know what to do with these new feelings). And in that they would see Eilistraee as the goddess symbolic for awakening such emotions, including love, in them. That might lead followers who feel a particular strong connection to emotions such as love to, in part, start seeing her as a goddess of love. But I don't think that necessarily makes her one.

As such more a goddess of bringing drow back to a certain sense of positive emotions than as a goddess of love.

In the end you don't have to be a goddess of love to smile on lovers. :)


Love -x-x-x-

Shir'le[/quote:392lnwud]

That's what I meant. The title I chose for this thread is misleading, as my speculation was that Eilistraee's drow might see and revere her as a symbol and a protectress of love -- after all in many cases she plays a big part in awakening such emotion in the dark elves. And with Eilistraee's role, protecting and encouraging love and lovers -among other positive emotions- would be totally fitting (as the Dark Dancer would be teaching the drow the kind of life they have forgotten, something akin to what mothers would do with children). I've edited the OP accordingly.
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Re: Eilistraee and love/lovers

Post by Shae »

Maybe a goddess of dark elven glory/honor or something? She might protect love but wouldn't be love herself in that case as well. I'm sure I must have read a super-long theory like that once on deviantart or Candlekeep or something. People totally deconstructed the whole concept and dismissed it as a bad job, but at least it made some of the utter wallbangers in LP look like it was trying to make at least some sense (not that it made me fonder in any way of LP mind you -_-;;;) I wasn't sure I liked it because it made Eilistraee seem a bit cold though.
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Re: Eilistraee and love/lovers

Post by Irennan »

IMO glory or honor really have nothing to do with Eilistraee. Nothing in her lore, personality or story points (or has ever pointed) at that. Vhaeraun, on the other hand, wants the dark elves/drow to return to the golden/glorious days of the past, so that aspect of him could have influenced Eilistraee during her Masked Lady phase. But I agree wih you, Eilistraee should feel anything but cold, it would be out of place and ruin her role as a mother goddess and part of her personality.

LP's ending isn't going to make any sense unless we retcon the Dark Dancer's character and replace her with something that is not her (or unless we stop accepting the ''sacrifice'' interpretation, because it really isn't canon, in which case Eilistraee's actions would be extremely naive and cost her Qilué's life + a huge portion of her power, even if not her own life -since, according to many canonical facts, a goddess can't be killed by what happened in the books, even with the uber sword-. But I prefer naive to completely ooc). I'm just glad that we can forget about it, since Eilistraee is alive once again (and separate from her brother).
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Re: Eilistraee and love/lovers

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Sure, it wasn't my theory. But I suppose glory/honor were also the wrong labels for it. Whoever came up with the theory I mentioned really just had an idea of Eilistraee as a goddess of bards and artists, someone like Milil, Deneir or Oghma, because her favored class is bard, she apparently loves reading, and she has specific artistic things in her portfolio like song and dance. I labelled this theory of her, perhaps mistakenly, as 'glory' because that's what the gods who have this kind of purview would seem to contribute to, since they embody the crowning pinnacles of a civilization, its knowledge and arts. But perhaps I should have said rather, that Eilistraee by this old theory actually fell under the category of gods of "art and knowledge," and the core idea was apparently Eilistraee as a "teacher." A bard, a goddess of imagination, who advocates "freedom of information" and thrives off making others feel entertained and bringing them feelings of joy, amazement, curiosity or a kind of child-like wonder. Not an entity that would or could embody any great things of herself, but who could cause/create things or opportunities for people by way of a very small flash or spark, an eye-opener, some incident, by which an individual might feel moved in some way---fascinated, charmed, whatever---into beginning an artistic or intellectual journey of self discovery, to find new ideas, or to follow their dreams or their heart and perhaps by way of that in the best scenario, eventually "wake up" to be who they truly are, changed by what they learn about themselves and the world around them.

If that's the case then as I said she would protect love in as it's a learning experience for her drow, an inspiration for them etc. but not be necessarily love herself, in that vein.

There certainly were various issues with the theory in general, like possible crossover with Vhaeraun like you suggest resulting in Masked Lady stuff, unless maybe she was extremely passive. And it did get throughly deconstructed for that. Another problem was that it also brought up the possibility if Eilistraee's like this she might have a side where she's kind of too removed or intellectual/ivory-tower, aka cold. You know the type; the scientist, the librarian, the absent-minded professor, etc. al. So, as I mentioned, I was so-so on it. Still, I thought there were parts of the theory that had a bit of merit as regards this discussion, which is---she may or may not actually be anything like this, but this idea of her among others doesn't posit her as being in the vein of a goddess like Sune, and that at least seems to be a common thread in a lot of the ideas of what sort of goddess she is and what things fall under her purview and to what extent, like love. Usually what we get regarding her is generally ideas like the one I mentioned, where she seems to have gotten typecast variously as more like a inspiration, family, harmony, mercy or wisdom goddess or something of that nature. That was my only real intention in bringing it up at all, albeit clumsily, given the topic of this thread.

Although if I remember correctly according to FR wiki Hanani Celanil names Eilistraee specifically in her list of allies, and Hanani's portfolio includes lovers. Oddly, Hanani isn't singled out so explicitly in turn in Eilistraee's write-up, except as so far as she's part of the Seldarine in general. Maybe no one felt the need to include it, or it's a deliberate oversight which might be significant, who knows. I don't recall reading what anyone thought Eilistraee's relationship to Hanani is which might shed some insight on where the former's purview would run with that. Before we turn Eilistraee herself into a goddess or protector for drow lovers, we might first look at what relationship she has to the goddess of elven lovers.

As for LP, I think a number of the ways the characters acted in general through the books bothered me more then the actual ending, although that was bad too (the skin color change especially irritated me for the unfortunate implications.)

And yes, I'm also glad Eilistraee is back, but obviously because it is human to be easily dissatisfied, I hope that Greenwood would remove some of the things that caused such controversy last time round. It's fine to have a bias, a lot of the FR deities do, but not to that extent. Well, I don't mean to say he intended that in theory, but regardless of intentions it just ended up not working when taking together all accounts.

I also hope he can make what is and is not her purview a bit more clear, admittedly for petulant wishfully silly reasons like fanart and such, because I realize it's impossible to get it that fast. We probably can't expect any of that for possibly years more for all I know, at the rate the company is moving with the products.
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Re: Eilistraee and love/lovers

Post by Irennan »

[quote="Shae":23bfskpv]Sure, it wasn't my theory. But I suppose glory/honor were also the wrong labels for it. Whoever came up with the theory I mentioned really just had an idea of Eilistraee as a goddess of bards and artists, someone like Milil, Deneir or Oghma, because her favored class is bard, she apparently loves reading, and she has specific artistic things in her portfolio like song and dance. I labelled this theory of her, perhaps mistakenly, as 'glory' because that's what the gods who have this kind of purview would seem to contribute to, since they embody the crowning pinnacles of a civilization, its knowledge and arts. But perhaps I should have said rather, that Eilistraee by this old theory actually fell under the category of gods of "art and knowledge," and the core idea was apparently Eilistraee as a "teacher." A bard, a goddess of imagination, who advocates "freedom of information" and thrives off making others feel entertained and bringing them feelings of joy, amazement, curiosity or a kind of child-like wonder. Not an entity that would or could embody any great things of herself, but who could cause/create things or opportunities for people by way of a very small flash or spark, an eye-opener, some incident, by which an individual might feel moved in some way---fascinated, charmed, whatever---into beginning an artistic or intellectual journey of self discovery, to find new ideas, or to follow their dreams or their heart and perhaps by way of that in the best scenario, eventually "wake up" to be who they truly are, changed by what they learn about themselves and the world around them.

If that's the case then as I said she would protect love in as it's a learning experience for her drow, an inspiration for them etc. but not be necessarily love herself, in that vein.

There certainly were various issues with the theory in general, like possible crossover with Vhaeraun like you suggest resulting in Masked Lady stuff, unless maybe she was extremely passive. And it did get throughly deconstructed for that. Another problem was that it also brought up the possibility if Eilistraee's like this she might have a side where she's kind of too removed or intellectual/ivory-tower, aka cold. You know the type; the scientist, the librarian, the absent-minded professor, etc. al. So, as I mentioned, I was so-so on it. Still, I thought there were parts of the theory that had a bit of merit as regards this discussion, which is---she may or may not actually be anything like this, but this idea of her among others doesn't posit her as being in the vein of a goddess like Sune, and that at least seems to be a common thread in a lot of the ideas of what sort of goddess she is and what things fall under her purview and to what extent, like love. Usually what we get regarding her is generally ideas like the one I mentioned, where she seems to have gotten typecast variously as more like a inspiration, family, harmony, mercy or wisdom goddess or something of that nature. That was my only real intention in bringing it up at all, albeit clumsily, given the topic of this thread.[/quote:23bfskpv]

Oh, [i:23bfskpv]this[/i:23bfskpv] changes everything, and I find myself in agreement with it, even if not fully. Eilistraee is a goddess of art, of song and dance, she revels in those, she is at her happiest looking at -among the other things- artists/bards at work, and spreading knowledge of song, music and art is among her teachings (just like spreading joy, sense of wonder and happiness).

In Demihuman Deities, while not explictly said, it is heavily implied that Eilistreaee is a goddess of freedom of expression and choice, of acceptance, working to preserve and make the beauty in the world flourish. So it is just natural that she would encourage the drow to chase their dreams, follow their hearts, discover themselves, basically embrace life. The way she -personally- does that is, per Ed Greenwood, (when her followers don't directly intervene) sending them visions, emotions, making her presence/love felt, reaching to their hearts and striking deep chords in them, related to what they deep inside need and wish for. The drow usually don't realize that when they receive such ''gifts'' by Eilistraee, but those [i:23bfskpv]can[/i:23bfskpv] change their view of the world and may lead them to seek a different life when confronted with the opportunity to do so. These may easily be the eye-opening events that you're talking about and, once free of the eternal conflict that Lolth imposes them, the drow will express their creative potential at fullest (which under Lolth's thumb is not possible at all, since stagnation is the result of her obsessive control. There's a discussion here http://eilistraee.com/forums/viewtopic. ... 110#p50331). In this sense, Eilistraee -as a goddess that values freedom of expression so much- is an ''enabler'' of what wonderful creations mortal drow minds may come to craft.

On the teacher aspect, IMO it is a given, since Eilistraee's a mother goddess and her goal is to make her children flourish, in all senses (so artistic/cultural one included). She has to be a teacher, both of basic aspects of life (even as trivial as finding food) and of the more sophisticated ones, to do that.

However, I disagree on the ''scholar''/scientist apect. She's more of an artist than that, and she's not cold, her character is nothing like that. If you want to be the one that opens your people eyes and shows them a different life, if you want to spread joy in the world and protect and aid those in need (like Eilistraee does), there is no way you can be cold. Besides, the existence of the absent minded professor stereotype doesn't mean that scholars have to be like that.

[quote:23bfskpv]
Although if I remember correctly according to FR wiki Hanani Celanil names Eilistraee specifically in her list of allies, and Hanani's portfolio includes lovers. Oddly, Hanani isn't singled out so explicitly in turn in Eilistraee's write-up, except as so far as she's part of the Seldarine in general. Maybe no one felt the need to include it, or it's a deliberate oversight which might be significant, who knows. I don't recall reading what anyone thought Eilistraee's relationship to Hanani is which might shed some insight on where the former's purview would run with that. Before we turn Eilistraee herself into a goddess or protector for drow lovers, we might first look at what relationship she has to the goddess of elven lovers. [/quote:23bfskpv]

Eilistraee's relationship with all the Seldarine is strained (Demihuman Deities). They are allies, but it is some kind of cold alliance, so her relationship with Hanali doesn't really matter in this regard IMO (and then , just look at Sune/Hanali being rivals, AFAIK). However, because of her nature and reasons already stated in this thread, Eilistraee can very well be a protectress of drow lovers (but that would not be her primary role, nor that was my thought when I started this thread, but a consequence of her favoring lovers, of her role and of what she does).

[quote:23bfskpv]
As for LP, I think a number of the ways the characters acted in general through the books bothered me more then the actual ending, although that was bad too (the skin color change especially irritated me for the unfortunate implications.)

And yes, I'm also glad Eilistraee is back, but obviously because it is human to be easily dissatisfied, I hope that Greenwood would remove some of the things that caused such controversy last time round. It's fine to have a bias, a lot of the FR deities do, but not to that extent. Well, I don't mean to say he intended that in theory, but regardless of intentions it just ended up not working when taking together all accounts.

I also hope he can make what is and is not her purview a bit more clear, admittedly for petulant wishfully silly reasons like fanart and such, because I realize it's impossible to get it that fast. We probably can't expect any of that for possibly years more for all I know, at the rate the company is moving with the products.[/quote:23bfskpv]

I had problems with both the behaviour of the characters and the ending (because the ending really either is Eilistraee behaving like a fool or she demolishing everything she has ever stood for, leaving her people behind, betraying her ideals). If with bias you mean her priestesses' sexism in the novels, Ed has already clarified on that in 2006. The only difference between genders should be in priesthood, and that is only because of Eilistraee's nature as a mother-goddess, making it impossible to feel ''her divine dance'' as anything but a female. It's just who Eilistraee is.
Outside of it, both females/males have the same duties (experts, workers, guards and so on) and canon sources (writeups on the goddess, SKR's article about drow life and so on) say that males should expect a fairly gender equal treatment. Ed himself said that this issue can be easily overstated and that at the end, priestesses of Eilistraee are happy to welcome and work with [i:23bfskpv]any[/i:23bfskpv] individual willing to join them. Eilistraee herself listens and makes her presence felt (through moonfire, for example) to males that dance for her, just like to females. Seriously, the novels really went too far with the sexism, especially when it was said that Ryld felt like there was no place for him among the Eilistraeens, while Eilistraee would welcome [i:23bfskpv]all[/i:23bfskpv] the drow in her embrace and her clergy is generally happy to do the same. It's almost like they were trying to make the priestesses unlikeable...

I'm confident that we will get more info about Eilistraee soon (if you consider 1 year to be soon), we should look at Ed's next novel for that (not Spellstorm, the following one, in 2016). About 2 months ago, I had an e-mail exchange with him, and he told me that he really wanted to restore Eilistraee and give her some spotlight. If everything will go right, Eilistraee will be featured 4 times (even if not directly, I guess, and only in small passages/scenes giving us a some bits of new lore about her) in that book (and a further confirmation of her being alive will also be in print).
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