The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the gods

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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Zekafae » Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:37 am

WOTC I really do not seeing making any REAL intelligent decisions to as what's gonna happen or who pops up where and how. I maybe wrong, but they might just go and say "okay she's back, you guys can leave us alone now... oh and that'll be 50 dollars for the book to as how she came back and campaigns for her."

How could they do it? A god dies and is practically a sacrifice to cure all of her followers from the curse, allowing them to be free of the stigma of the spider queen's bondage of a life of hell. These followers surely wouldn't forget their goddess, if they do then there's something seriously flawed about it all but I digress. This remembrance and sacrifice could and probably should very well be the source of in her memory the faith could bring the goddess back to be the patron over them. Cheap idea, but done right it would make sense.


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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Irennan » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:09 am

[quote="Zekafae":2gamwome]WOTC I really do not seeing making any REAL intelligent decisions to as what's gonna happen or who pops up where and how. I maybe wrong, but they might just go and say "okay she's back, you guys can leave us alone now... oh and that'll be 50 dollars for the book to as how she came back and campaigns for her." [/quote:2gamwome]

A campaign involving Eilistraee? I'd be very happy if that happened, but we'll be lucky if we get even a simple 'she's back' for her, IMO. But the chances are there, Eilistraee is NDA atm and there's what Ed said about her coming back ''it's HIGHLY likely we haven't seen the last of Eilistraee''.

[quote:2gamwome]
How could they do it? A god dies and is practically a sacrifice to cure all of her followers from the curse, allowing them to be free of the stigma of the spider queen's bondage of a life of hell. These followers surely wouldn't forget their goddess, if they do then there's something seriously flawed about it all but I digress. This remembrance and sacrifice could and probably should very well be the source of in her memory the faith could bring the goddess back to be the patron over them. Cheap idea, but done right it would make sense.


Also yes I'm still alive, to the dismay of many.[/quote:2gamwome]

The Sundering is the epithome of cheap, so yeah, w/e will work.
Thing is, logic would lead to the conclusion that most of her followers wouldn't be grateful, but baffled/saddened/angry at why Eilistraee 'sacrificed'. I've already said it, but -in short- I think that the vast majority of them -Eilistraee included- would never even consider for a moment the idea that being a drow is a stigma of Lolth's oppression.Their race is part of their identity and it is their people -the drow- that they fight for (which now they they will have a lot of troubles doing, being brownies). The demonic curse on the other hand -as we can see from all previous data- doesn't do anything but barring them from Arvandor. In an Eilistraeen's eye their goddess 'sacrificed' to give them something they didn't need/want, that even diminishes what they stand for, while abandoning the vast majority of drow to Lolth. And it is what she did, her actions didn't fit her character the slightest there.

However the idea of her followers' love bringing her back is beautiful, even if cheap (and then again WotSQ and LP were cheap deus ex machina, so...), IMO. It would truly show how strong the bond between Eilistraee and her drow can be.

Anyway anything they may come up with could work now, I wouldn't care as long as Eilistraee returned (I mean, Helm survived hiding in a goat...).

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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Zekafae » Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:17 am

The whole thing with her return, is they'd have to do it right, I mean seriously I'm not a writer for this but I could very easily come up with a compelling way on how to do it. Of course they can still take the idea out of the Bible and do the same thing. A very prime example of this. Jesus dies on the cross, he is entombed and buried. Resurrection occurs, he leaves the tomb to head to Heaven. This is a deity coming back from the dead. So it would be very plausible for it to occur, as Jesus too died for the sins, and paid a ransom. Eilistraee's sacrifice is no less important to the Drow, nor is it any less impacting on those who survived all of this. So if by any chance drow whom remember, went through the transformation and remain vigilent, would be very grateful to see their Maiden Goddess return, and as such return to worship once more.

Her revival could be easily done by a long campaign, including recovery of artifacts, items that were involved during the time of her demise, or even finding the body, if there is a body and some ritual to be performed. Or perhaps even a higher divine for the elves could bring her back, afterall with her, she did a lot of good, and I'm sure there's some that took notice and wouldn't mind bringing an ally back from the dead.
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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Irennan » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:52 am

I know that Eilistraee's drow would likely do anything to get their goddess back, and that's why I said that having her returned by their love would be beautiful. A campaign where Eilistraeens manage to do what you said, or having Corellon actually gathering both his children in his arms after the chess game nonsensical BS and having them healing, relearning, reconnecting etc. in Arvandor (instead of not giving a crap about them and about fixing what he had a huge part in starting) would do it.

Or -since the events in the books were very muddy and you don't actually see the goddess dying (only an avatar of Eilistraee was killed, the Crescent Blade was deprived of its power as we can see from Cavatina's soul survivng it, and so on)- they could have the Dark Maiden outsmarting her opponents and doing something like giving away her godhood, but continuing her quest as mortal or archfey.


I would just prefer if the 'transformation' and curse removal were downplayed, because -really- as I said, Eilistraee sacrificing for her people is right, but that's not what happened.

They had her basically abandoning everything she fought for and dedicated her life to -all of sudden- to accomplish something that her followers didn't need or probably even want, something completely unnecessary and irrelevant to her goal, and that is totally not right. It clearly was a Deus ex Machina to get rid of her and all good [i:30lo8m5i]drow[/i:30lo8m5i]. The redemption she wishes for is about freedom of choice: considering that, what she did in the novels is out of character, other than being very stupid for her goal (especially considering that by doing so she actually, knowingly abandoned the vast majority of drow -the ones who needed her the most- and made it almost impossible for the transformed dark elves to even interact with drow, therefore severely harming her quest).*


That's the reason why so many people -including FR authors have a problem with those events and with that 'sacrifice' (Erik de Bie said so, and is having a campaing where Eilistraee and Vhaeraun reincarnated in a couple of mortals, even Lisa Smedman herself disagreed with the changes). They are not coherent with what Eilistraee stands for and fights to achieve, WotC completely missed the point on what she is about and her MO when planning WotSQ/LP...


*And I don't get why the transformation and curse removal needed her to sacrifice, since they were obtained through a high magic spell...

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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Zekafae » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:50 am

It just goes back to how much of a failure the company's become by mismanagement of the product, and the corporate greed of the share holders. So I have an idea of things given that I can do stories but I'm cursed with being unable to come up with new names for anything. Among other small problems though I could do a dnd world that makes Faerun look like an island.

Eilstraee as you said her death is just stupid on numerous fronts, so, how can we fic this? We know all Drow are cunning, elves in general are smart, cunning and have sharp and quick wits. Eilistraee wouldn't be any different needing to be smart in order to go against Lolth. So here's some ideas including things you mentioned.

Avatar: If they only killed her avatar, it's nothing more than an illusion, and/or a very devout follower to take one for the team, so what happens? Somehow this coup works and now you have still somehow the evil drow and the now "untainted" dark elves. But still the Goddess is unseen and unheard from, why could this be? She's in hiding waiting for things to blow over, and perhaps regaining strength so she can come back and handle things better.

Actual Sacrifice: If it was a high spell that cursed the drow, then that spell can be broken, the question is how, but also how to bring her back. If her name is still recorded in history, then she's not completely dead, so means of revival are possible. Rituals, high magic and so on, of course her useless father is as much to blame as Lolth if not moreso, and since he's clearly so aloof and uncaring, the death of him could be a good means to bring her back. Afterall why not right?

Sacrifice alt: She gave up her godhood, outsider status, and so on, to become a normal dark elf, a "mortal" dark elf to live among those whom she saved. However many years since the Old DND to what we got now? I'm not sure, sadly I never bothred with 4.0(lack of money) but never the less there is that. Of course there's also other things including perhaps a loyal follower loved her and was a drow, and perhaps her sacrifice to be with said elf was a catalyst for the change. Who knows really, anything is possible, there's numerous reasons why one would give up their immortality, most notoriously of which is out of love, and as such it could be to live the life of a normal elf, and be with someone. Just one last divine act to save the elves she so loved and sought to save and "dad" is just being a jerk by not helping in any way shape or form.

There's a ton of different reason why it could have happened, and how to fix it if she is now a mortal and doing who knows what, how would you convince her to become the maiden once more and become the patron for the elves? Perhaps she's tired of the divine politics she stepped out, happened in many noble families and the current generations have nothing to show from their family's roots.
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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Irennan » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:44 am

Personally, I love the idea of Eilistraee becoming more 'human', since she has always been that way, if compared to the other gods. Eilistraee has a goal and personality that are relatable, not distant and 'divine' and that is one of her traits that make me like her so much: she is close to the her people. Having the Dark Maiden getting tired of being involved in a pointless divine war that has caused only death and suffering, pulling herself out of it to live with her followers and fight alongside with them for the freedom of their people would be fitting for her rebellious personality and MO. She could directly, face-to-face interact with drow, show them the life that they were denied, protect and nurture them. She could do that as an immortal Arch Fey (what was planned for Menzoberranzan: CoI but that was edited out in the end), but ''mortal'' drow/dark elf would be even better -IMO, ofc-

Hiding and regaining strength could work as well.

Corellon actually saving Eilistraee and Vhaeraun could do too.

The actual sacrifice I just can't get behind, because it is stupid for her goals and out of character, considering the ideals she fights for.

As you said, there are plenty of solutions -one of which was already proposed and even greenlighted, before being removed- it's just up to WotC to apply them, if they actually [i:37de8cur]want[/i:37de8cur] to (the mortal drow/de one would be the one best fitting their wish of not having Eilistraee/Vhaeraun holding too much influence) ...

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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Zekafae » Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:19 pm

Thing is we're a niche in the franchise and market, though if the demand was large and massive enough, it's not out of the question that they give a sound and good way on how to bring her back into things and it being cannon.
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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Irennan » Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:44 pm

Well, Eilistraee is quite popular. Many people, even among the ones who enjoyed the books, were disappointed with the LP novels for what they did to the drow pantheon and because of how little sense their events make. When 5e was announced and threads started popping at Candlekeep, a lot of people included the return of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (or Masked Lady) in the list of changes they thought as necessary for the Realms; two authors even tried to bring them back in the sourcebook I mentioned before (the material was developed and then -sadly- cut). I've seen only like 1 or 2 people opposed to their return in canon, while there are a few who really love the characters (as the existence of sites like this one can show).

Drow sell, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun with their concept of rebel drow who fight to build a future for their people -far different from Drizzt- are very interesting characters who could easily make for involving stories and increase sales, and then there's what Ed said ''it's HIGHLY likely we haven't seen the last of Eilistraee''. The only reason I can think of for WotC not restoring them after many people and even some authors expressed in favor of it, is that there are still high-ranked persons who want the drow to be one-note parody and Lolth's meat only.

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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Ogrim » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:40 pm

You know, all things considered, Wizards of the Coast, put their stamp of approval on both of the Neverwinter Nights games, which unless I am mistaken is as good as saying this is what will be within the timeline of these games. Neverwinter Nights, the first game, with the Plague in Neverwinter, is to my understanding, centuries after the fall of the Netherese Empire, and the only traces of them being the ruins of their formerly flying cities that crashed to the land with their fall from power. In Neverwinter Nights 2, Eilistraee and Mystra are both valid deities for selection by good aligned characters.

Now, I'm not really sure, what time frame that's set in, in relation to this 'Sundering', but if Mystra is alive, and this being centuries since the Spellplague and the Fall of the Weave, then it stands to reason, WotC has basically already spilled the beans, unless they want to attempt to make a retraction, and insist the Neverwinter Nights games, are no longer canon, which would just be low down and underhanded in my book, but entirely possible I suppose.

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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Shir'le E. Illios » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:25 am

Both Neverwinter Nights games are set during the 3E timeline, so before the Spellplague. I think the second expansion for NWN2 includes hints at the coming Spellplague or such, but I haven't played that one.

The MMO Neverwinter is set after the Spellplague.

The fall of the Netherese Empire is a very separate event from the Spellplague. But have to do with the weave, but they're centuries apart.


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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Ogrim » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:16 pm

Oh? Did I have it all wrong? Well drat! Oh well, it's all very confusing to me then. Of course, one sure way for people to hear of Eilistraee, is in reading the War of the Spider Queen books. Plenty of rumor of Menzoberranyr males deserting, to join the Eilistraee 'cult' so that they are no longer limited in social stature, by their gender.

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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Irennan » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:57 pm

From the (free) basic D&D (5E) rules document:

[quote:246bvrpx][...]And there, well out of the sunlight, is a lone drow -a fugitive from the subterranean expanse of the Underdark, trying to make his way in a world that fears his kind. The Player's Handbook has more info about these unusual races.[/quote:246bvrpx]

While this sounds a bit too much like Drizzt, its prensece in a basic rules document means that WotC's stance has probably changed and that they now ''approve'' different kinds of drow in their settings. Now, since not everyone wants to play a Drizzt clone or some Lolthite, I think that it is not so unrealistic to think that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are coming back (albeit, I guess, greatly diminished in influence) and that maybe they will even be mentioned in the Player's Handbook (since it has been said that it will cover the FR, RW mythology and GH pantheons).

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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Shir'le E. Illios » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:21 am

I love your optimism there, but WotC has [i:2v9l25uw]always[/i:2v9l25uw] been in favor of Drizzt-type lone good drow who struggled to escape their evil race. One of the reasons they got rid of Eilistraee,a s I understand it, is because she made it too easy for these kind of characters. You can't be a precious little good drow snowflake if you've got a whole religion of good drow.

We'll see, but I'm not particularly hopeful (nor am I certain that I really care anymore).


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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Irennan » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:39 am

AFAIK, they weren't particularly in favor of non evil drow character during 4e and they certainly didn't present them as an option right off the bat (the bit about them being 'unredeemably evil' also didn't help).

Also, I don't get how EIlistraee makes it easy for Drizzt-like characters. Her followers are completely different from the ''lone, emo-ish drow'' stereotype and they don't try to escape their race (they try to do and change something for them); plus they are few, misunderstood and 'figures of myth': it's not like that their existence is enough to dampen the hate and hostility towards drow (so that Drizzt clones can still play the oppressed part).
If it is because you have communities of drow, well if dark elves can actually choose a different life, then it only makes sense that with time the ones who did managed to gather together in a world that is hostile to them. Surely it is more ''realistic'' than ''there are only 4-5 superdrow scattered in the Realms''. At this point the presence of a goddess hardly influences how unique the lone drow are and would even offer them options for storytelling.
Also Eilistraee is very popular among Realms fans and her kind of character has managed to meet resonance, I'd even say more than Drizzt clones.

Nonetheless, after what WotC did, I obviously understand your disillusion and where you're coming from when saying that you are not sure if you really care anymore. For some reason I can't get myself to not care, I really want to see Eilistraee treated how she deserves (instead of that complete BS that didn't fit her in the slightest that they did) and have a place in the published Realms, especially so that other people may get to know her (if after this editions she doesn't come back because she doesn't fit WotC's idea of drow, then -as I said in another post- they will probably, effectively retcon her from the setting, basically ignoring her, which would be terrible).
Last edited by Irennan on Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Sundering is actually going to bring back all the go

Post by Dostrealt » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:36 am

[quote="Irennan":sv8wqqls]PS: Any drow with a bit of self-respect would never worship Corellon/any elven god, the same deities who had the genius idea to exile their whole race just 'cause [i:sv8wqqls]some[/i:sv8wqqls] of them (not even all) picked Lolth over him. He cast that curse punishing the a whole people for the errors of few, while after the Miyeritari dark elves -who were followers of his own 'beloved' daughter- were exterminated for the lulz by Aryvandaar, he did nothing about the gold elves, only punishing the Vyshaan dinasty (so much bias there). And they still refuses to do anything for the drow, not even rising a finger to help Eilistraee and even looking down upon them.[/quote:sv8wqqls]

I always thought that Eilistraee was working to fix things between the drow and the elves.

[quote="Irennan":sv8wqqls]I would just prefer if the 'transformation' and curse removal were downplayed, because -really- as I said, Eilistraee sacrificing for her people is right, but that's not what happened.

They had her basically abandoning everything she fought for and dedicated her life to -all of sudden- to accomplish something that her followers didn't need or probably even want, something completely unnecessary and irrelevant to her goal, and that is totally not right. It clearly was a Deus ex Machina to get rid of her and all good [i:sv8wqqls]drow[/i:sv8wqqls]. The redemption she wishes for is about freedom of choice: considering that, what she did in the novels is out of character, other than being very stupid for her goal (especially considering that by doing so she actually, knowingly abandoned the vast majority of drow -the ones who needed her the most- and made it almost impossible for the transformed dark elves to even interact with drow, therefore severely harming her quest).*[/quote:sv8wqqls]

Perhaps the new brown-elf race could be used as neutral race that deals with both the elves and the drow. :?

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