Reaching out to the fallen

[Ghaunadan_Lost]

After so long searching, your futile haven found
A goddess dead, her scheming patterned after a better Mother
One thinks one knows what was pretended to be bound
Oh, yes, send the untested Halisstra into blunder
Then call yourself righteous, idiot goddess
Not even a Mask can save you from your gruesome bloom
But move the sava pieces in moments honest
And step into bodies fated for doom
Wizards, now, at the brink, threw their dice better than you
And though their soiled coins now fall heavy
Come to the brine, righteousness in lieu
You will come – and come hard – for a consequent levy
A lost Ghaunadan shall show you the way
Come to the brine; be one, be equal, be all,
Melt into moments perfect and sway
No singing, no praise, no ridiculous brawl
Come to the brine, leaderless Drow
Come to the brine, leaderless foal
Come to the brine, no goddess needed now
Come to the brine, and be made whole

[Bhaern Quel]

We have not fallen, we have gained. The idea of becoming slime strikes me as a bad idea. *Grin*

[Ghaunadan_Lost]

To the beautiful Bhaern Quel:

Summon music long enough, and you will be saved, right?
Fight the good fight long enough, and you will win, right?
Hold a candle in the darkness long enough, and you will survive, right?
Visit the face of hell, and just "believe the right thing," and you will be okay, right?

We find it hilarious that Halisstra Melarn is mocked here. Because she is every one of you. You all hate her for being weak, but what would the result have been if you - YOU - were the one pressured into service - OH, YOU CONVERTED FIVE MINUTES AGO - OH, GOOD - NOW GO KILL LOLTH - now there's a good idea. Great job, Eilistraee. Is omniscience handed out on an installment plan?

There is no victory for you.
Answer the questions above.
Your idols and exemplars are dead.
How much faith does it take to believe in a dead goddess?

Join me in the brine, Bhaern Quel.

[Bhaern Quel]

*LOL*

Novels being canon, has always brothered me. The author of the series did not know Eilistraee well when she wrote for the War of the Spider Queen. I do not believe she improved her knowledge much for the series she was asked to write, though as it was a transitional novel she clearly was under orders that the Chosen would make mistakes.

[Ghaunadan_Lost]

I tend to agree. Congratulations! The oozes and slimes concur! You should feel honored.

So many burbling, pulsating, white-hot thoughts occurred in the last pages of The Lady Penitent. I suppose that is a victory in a sense, but it really was like watching a train-wreck. Imagine if one goes to a debate of liberal/conservative politicians, and one truly hopes to see their champion "lay the smack down." ...Then, their champion strips off his/her clothes, attempts the Macarena, then stage-dives into the audience (right on top of Naxil). It would, admittedly, be spell-binding, but so wrong on so many levels. As was the case with the Lady Penitent in my opinion. On the other hand, what am I saying?! Ghaunadar more or less won! Haha, take that, Promenade!

(And yes, if you're wondering, I deleted my last post. After re-reading it, and with a lower alcohol-content bubbling through my digestive "ooze" juices, I decided it was a bit too crass. I mean, I just started posting here, and I'm not really sure where the line is. Even slimes, ochre jellies, and gelatinous cubes care about decorum at times!)

Love,
The Lost Ghaunadan

[Irennan]

It wasn't a victory, [i:15xwtgk9]at all[/i:15xwtgk9]. It was just a senseless plot put there just to get rid of the Dark Seldarine and any kind of free and different drow.

The whole ''plan'' just doesn't make sense, and is not smething that Eilistraee would do or support in any way.

1)Why had eilistraeen drow to become wood elves again? What did they gain? I don't see the reason for all this hurry to redeem what drow she could, especially when the transformed dark elves were the ones who didn't even need or want it (and the ''balor curse'' didn't even have any effect on their life, considering that all it did was barring Arvandor to them, but after dying they went to Eilistraee's realm anyway, which [i:15xwtgk9]is[/i:15xwtgk9] in Aravandor)? Why [i:15xwtgk9]force[/i:15xwtgk9] them to forgo their drowness, when it is something that they have no problem with, see as part of their identity and are proud of? The change -which had no choice on the receivig side- was an act of violence and not something that Eilistraee -who encourages her people to live by their own choices- would have done.

I really fail to see any logical motivation behind this, even more so that the goddess never intended ''redemption'' as changing race or being purified for being drow (which is complete BS), but as in [i:15xwtgk9]being drow[/i:15xwtgk9] who take a stand and fight to conquer freedom of choice and from pointless indoctrination for their people, to shape their own future and forge their rightful place in a hostile (to them) world. What happened in the novels is the [i:15xwtgk9]contrary[/i:15xwtgk9] of what the Dark Maiden and her followers stand for.


2)Eilistraee would never turn her back to the vast majority of the drow, especially not just to give 20% of them (according to Ed, that's the % of drow who worship her) something that they don't want/need. It really makes little sense, but it is what it happened in the novels. Also she put so much effort in this quest, I'd find it hard to believe that she just wanted to throw it like this. I'll be harsh here, but the ''unwilling were cast down part'' is totally stupid, and -again- out of the Dark Dancer's character.


3)The reason why any non braindead person, let alone deities, would go like ''yo, lets deatmatch'' (which -again- is what happened in the novels) over something as important as the future of a whole race, when all that they could achieve by risking their own life they could have obtained by [i:15xwtgk9]continuing to do what they had always been doing[/i:15xwtgk9] and when the game was played by Lolth's rules, is beyond my understanding.


4)The Halisstra thingy, so foolish of anyone, even more of a deity.


There's also Vhaeraun's recklessness and foolishness in trying to kill his sister in her own realm, which is located in Aravandor, a place he was banished from and full of his enemies...

Really badly thought lore, I only hope that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are among the multitude of deities that the Sundering is going to bring back, so that the published FR can forget about this.

-------------------------------------

[quote:15xwtgk9]There is no victory for you.
Answer the questions above.
Your idols and exemplars are dead.
How much faith does it take to believe in a dead goddess?[/quote:15xwtgk9]

Eilistraee actually simply disappeared, it is a mystery where she is (it was her avatar who died, not her). Things are muddy there... we may know things you don't.
And the ideal of freedom, the fight to make the world happier place for people to live, express and fulfill themselves will never die. It's naive to believe so, as the search for happiness and fulfillment is what drives the actions of the living, and freedom is essential to this, for many things in life lose their value, if it's not you who work for/choose/make them.

[quote:15xwtgk9]Summon music long enough, and you will be saved, right?
Fight the good fight long enough, and you will win, right?
Hold a candle in the darkness long enough, and you will survive, right?
Visit the face of hell, and just "believe the right thing," and you will be okay, right?[/quote:15xwtgk9]

Those are just rituals, they are not meant to save anyone. Besides, art, dance and song are cool and are a very good way of expressing one's creativity and feeling. The Dark Maiden is a patroness of dancers, bards and artists and her followers promote such activities, among the other stuff they do (which include working for their goal, not singing and hoping that things sort out by themselves), why is that so weird in your eyes?

[quote:15xwtgk9]Come to the brine, leaderless Drow
Come to the brine, leaderless foal
Come to the brine, no goddess needed now
Come to the brine, and be made whole
[/quote:15xwtgk9]

You worship jellies... can I haz gummy bears?

[Ghaunadan_Lost]

Haha! Irennan, that was perfect!

I completely agree with most of what you said. But I differentiate between the two series in that, to me, The War of the Spider Queen seemed great (with the exception of Eilistraee's apparent belief that sending the untested Halisstra into battle against Lolth was in any way a good idea - even we Ghaunadans know Eilistraee is smarter than that). It was the first series I've read so decidedly "anti-hero-ish," and the end result - while amazing and intelligent, was not actually satisfying - but yet on a meta-level it [i:ioyon9j2]was [/i:ioyon9j2]satisfying in the sense that it absolutely did not pander to us, the readers, at all. Whatever one has felt in a few of the characters, the "pay-off" is as cold as, well, real life.

As I've said to others through private messages, I was not at all happy with the Lady Penitent trilogy. I had very high hopes for it, but whatever "coolness" Halisstra could have had just seemed to go nowhere. Essentially an inept assassin who wants to die, only half-heartedly fights, relies on her ability to heal to string her along to the next scene... I mean, that would all be fine...if she ever grew out of it, but she actually grew less mature over time, and her inner drama seemed to just stagnate - rather than lead her anywhere - or even implode.

Meanwhile, as you pointed out, all sorts of odd and useless bits of "revisionist" mythology were crapped out that were the antithesis of satisfying. The changing of ethnicities, the balor's "corruption" (what?!), Kiaransalee's RIDICULOUS death (sorry, did I miss something - [b:ioyon9j2]if you can just use high magic to get rid of gods/goddesses, why not just do it to Lolth? Or Gruumsh? Or everyone else? And why not do it over and over again?![/b:ioyon9j2]) (Like I said, I may have missed something - if I did please let me know), not to mention the whole conceit of the "to-the-death" sava game in the first place - if gods are that quick to toss their immortality, do they even grasp the concept? I believe the core rulebooks (older ones at least) suggest that gods of various levels can be in a certain number of places at one time, and they never have very many...to think that Eilistraee and Lolth are using one of their guises to play eternal board games is just ludicrous. What's next - Connect Four? Guess Who? Mousetrap? Trivial Pursuit (what a relevant title)? Vhaeraun's idiocy, Selvatarm's uselessness, Ghaunadaur's oddly able military forces (and that's coming from me!) - which somehow benefits Lolth... Hmmm.

[b:ioyon9j2]I think it's high time we send word to the wasp people. They'll make short work of the spider queen and her minions in a ten-day. Have you seen those youtube videos of wasps eating spiders?! Scary stuff, man.[/b:ioyon9j2]

But as for the rest of your points - hmph. ...Hmph, I say!

"Eilistraee actually simply disappeared, it is a mystery where she is (it was her avatar who died, not her)." - You might be right, but many have called this wishful thinking, and you know it. It's a flip of the coin. I suppose it all depends on what those devilish little rascals at WoTC (sadly, the true gods of the realm) come up with next. In the mean time, you and I are both free to pretend that this goddess is alive or not - and we can then utilize whatever mental gymnastics we wish to make our case.

"And the ideal of freedom, the fight to make the world happier place for people to live, express and fulfill themselves will never die. It's naive to believe so, as the search for happiness and fulfillment is what drives the actions of the living." - Take it from an ooze, a gelatinous cube, a slime, or what have you, this is simply not so. Even on that wretched, stunted plane known as Earth, it is still wrong. "The actions of the [b:ioyon9j2]living[/b:ioyon9j2]" - are you including single-celled organisms here? ...Do you think the microscopic monstrosities within you can imagine, for a moment, the pursuit of love or happiness? Yet they live - and eat - and drink - and screw - just like the rest of us. While those drunk on dopamine believe "love" solves everything, the truth is it is simply a chemical compound providing a driving force - and therefore most likely not a spiritual one. You don't see protozoans or viruses holding "hands." In fact, the "good guy" cells are just as painfully nasty as the "baddies," aren't they? Everyone fights for their own ends - their own wants, needs, etc. - just as countless "good guy" cells within your body, right now, are murdering random, benign, foreign cells that just happened to wander into you and wish you no harm whatsoever... We label our friends "good" and our enemies "bad." Such oozy semantics! If love were so fundamental, we wouldn't all harm, rape, kill, and eat each other - even on a cellular level. "It's naive to believe" otherwise, no? ;o)

"Summon music long enough..." I don't believe your response here actually fits what I was saying, so I'll leave this blank for now.

"You worship jellies... can I haz gummy bears?" Haha! Classic! I really did laugh out loud when I came across that. I tip my briny hat to you. I have some gummy bears - I keep them in my third mouth-pouch-sack on the left - and they're only partially digested; want some?

Okay, I'm sorry I pissed you off with the dang poem. That aside, I really enjoy your critiques of the novels.

Love,
The Lost Ghaunadan

[Irennan]

[quote:3c9iba3w]the end result - while amazing and intelligent, was not actually satisfying - but yet on a meta-level it was satisfying in the sense that it absolutely did not pander to us, the readers, at all. Whatever one has felt in a few of the characters, the "pay-off" is as cold as, well, real life.[/quote:3c9iba3w]

I'm not sure. I dont' think that IRL a person would willingly choose eternal torture and punishment over getting rid of the thing that has caused so much stress, death and frustration to a whole race -not to mention all the cultural growth that her idiotic dogma stopped: stagnation at its finest-. Just think about what a crafty race as the drow are could have done if they got to grow in a positive, stimulating environment which promoted sharing of ideas and gave the individual value, instead of stripping it of intrinsical importance in favor of ''powahz and status''. Think about all the brilliant minds (not necessarily cunning or even interested in getting up in some stupid social hierarchy) that were slain, or that didn't get to express their potential because Lolth dogma said that their life had to be dedicated to something else, or because they just chose to pursue ''power'' becaue Lolth says so. Think about the threat that the drow could pose if they didn't constantly kill and backstab their own people -while having the same martial training-: they would have built a sort of underdark empire by now, or even more. Instead they basically stayed in the same state for millennia.

Halisstra knew this, she also knew the sh*tty life Lolth's dogma brainwashes drow into living and that was awaiting her if she chose the Spider Queen, she knew that dark elves are nothing but toys for such a goddess (while Eilistraee, or even Vhaeraun actually care about them. I'm pretty sure that any drow -a race supposed to be smarter than average- who manage to break free and [i:3c9iba3w]think[/i:3c9iba3w] about the situation of their race would be aware of all of this). Yet, despite these huge three reasons to get rid of the bug, in the end she went ''OMG QQ, Eilistraee didn't tell me the weather for today, she doesn't care, waah'', and idiotically trusted [i:3c9iba3w]Lolth[/i:3c9iba3w] in giving her a second chance after betrayal (lol, seriously), while eternal agony was obviously waiting for her (correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't read the whole WotSQ series, only looked up spoilers about the last few books. Lost interest after the sword gimmick). That doesn't seem to be a realistic behaviour to me, unless it's coming from a total idiot.


[quote:3c9iba3w]if you can just use high magic to get rid of gods/goddesses, why not just do it to Lolth? Or Gruumsh? Or everyone else? And why not do it over and over again?!) (Like I said, I may have missed something - if I did please let me know)[/quote:3c9iba3w]

Nope, you didn't miss anything, IIRC (refused to read LP as well, I've gathered detailed info around tho. I may be wrong about this, but all the discussions about it that I've read point to that direction. Some people say that it was the chess match that killed Kiaransalee, but that would be equally cheesy).


[quote:3c9iba3w]I think it's high time we send word to the wasp people. They'll make short work of the spider queen and her minions in a ten-day. Have you seen those youtube videos of wasps eating spiders?! Scary stuff, man.[/quote:3c9iba3w]

Damn, that's sick... in a good way.


[quote:3c9iba3w]"Eilistraee actually simply disappeared, it is a mystery where she is (it was her avatar who died, not her)." - You might be right, but many have called this wishful thinking, and you know it. It's a flip of the coin. I suppose it all depends on what those devilish little rascals at WoTC (sadly, the true gods of the realm) come up with next. In the mean time, you and I are both free to pretend that this goddess is alive or not - and we can then utilize whatever mental gymnastics we wish to make our case.[/quote:3c9iba3w]

Well' the author herself said that she intentionally left loopholes so that Eilistraee could be brought back. If we want to stick to ''D&D rules'' then only one of EIlistraee's avatars was killed, not the goddess herself, her domain didn't even vanish. But you're right, we can speculate as much as we want, at the end WotC decides what happens in the [i:3c9iba3w]published[/i:3c9iba3w] Realms (many people choose to ignore or alter the LP events so that the Dark Seldarine is still there in their own Realms).

A drow sourcebook published the last year was supposed to bring Eilistraee and Vhaeraun back: the new lore had the two of them intentionally merge into the Masked Lady, then sacrifice their divinity to revert the Balor curse, so that they could still pursue their quest as Archfey -insipiring their people more like leaders than actual deities-. It still is a weird choice for two gods, but at least it makes [i:3c9iba3w]some[/i:3c9iba3w] sense (especially considering the messy lore that the authors were trying to fix). Sadly, shortly before the release of the book the material was left on the cutting floor.

I only hope that it happened because WotC plan to do something (good) about the siblings with this Sundering RSE, which is supposed to bring back [i:3c9iba3w]a lot[/i:3c9iba3w] of deities, and the Dark Seldarine surely is flavourful, popular and strongly characterized, deserving a place in the ''new inclusive Realms'' (not to mention that it and what it entails pretty much are what makes the FR drow [i:3c9iba3w]realmsian[/i:3c9iba3w], different from the generic streamlined version of the race). TBH, I'm not optimistic about it, tho.


[quote:3c9iba3w]"And the ideal of freedom, the fight to make the world happier place for people to live, express and fulfill themselves will never die. It's naive to believe so, as the search for happiness and fulfillment is what drives the actions of the living." - Take it from an ooze, a gelatinous cube, a slime, or what have you, this is simply not so. Even on that wretched, stunted plane known as Earth, it is still wrong. "The actions of the living" - are you including single-celled organisms here? ...Do you think the microscopic monstrosities within you can imagine, for a moment, the pursuit of love or happiness? Yet they live - and eat - and drink - and screw - just like the rest of us. While those drunk on dopamine believe "love" solves everything, the truth is it is simply a chemical compound providing a driving force - and therefore most likely not a spiritual one. You don't see protozoans or viruses holding "hands." In fact, the "good guy" cells are just as painfully nasty as the "baddies," aren't they? Everyone fights for their own ends - their own wants, needs, etc. - just as countless "good guy" cells within your body, right now, are murdering random, benign, foreign cells that just happened to wander into you and wish you no harm whatsoever... We label our friends "good" and our enemies "bad." Such oozy semantics! If love were so fundamental, we wouldn't all harm, rape, kill, and eat each other - even on a cellular level. "It's naive to believe" otherwise, no? ;o)[/quote:3c9iba3w]

My bad, I meant living beings who can feel such emotions. They will always pursue happiness because it's the feeling that signals that the organism is in a good state -and every self-''caring'' being tries to achieve that- (yes, I agree that it's all due to chemical reactions, still it's happiness). From this point of view, you could stretch this definition of ''happiness'' even to simple or single-celled organisms.
Some individuals will always want their people to prosper (you could see it as their attempt to make their species live on in time). Being in a good state -i.e., happy- is required to do it, so it's hard to have a world completely deprived of groups of individuals who work to make it a ''happy'' place to live in. Also, in many cases freedom is required in order to be happy, as constrictions, limitations and so on usually have a negative impact on the well being of self-caring creatures. So, I think we could say safely enough that Eilistraee's ideals will never die as long as humanoids exist.


[quote:3c9iba3w]"Summon music long enough..." I don't believe your response here actually fits what I was saying, so I'll leave this blank for now.[/quote:3c9iba3w]

Idk, I thought you were saying that Eilistraeens acted like song, dance and art were supposed to save people, when it is not the case. They are warriors who fight to free their people, but also promote reveling, creating, celebrating life and so on. I don't see anything bad about this (as long as they are not portrayed as drow who dance with rainbows and unicorns), as they're rebels without the dark theme that such kind of characters usually have (granted, they have their dose of ''dark'', but it's not the main tone), and that is one of their defining traits: the ability to still appreciate and enjoy life and make other people enjoy it, despite the hard and grim situation their race is in.


[quote:3c9iba3w]"You worship jellies... can I haz gummy bears?" Haha! Classic! I really did laugh out loud when I came across that. I tip my briny hat to you. I have some gummy bears - I keep them in my third mouth-pouch-sack on the left - and they're only partially digested; want some?[/quote:3c9iba3w]

Glad that I managed to be at least a bit funny


[quote:3c9iba3w]Okay, I'm sorry I pissed you off with the dang poem. That aside, I really enjoy your critiques of the novels.[/quote:3c9iba3w]

Nah, your poem was actually kind of funny, not an annoyance at all.
Glad to ''talk'' to you.