Question: How do you use the drow translator?

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Shir'le E. Illios
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Question: How do you use the drow translator?

Post by Shir'le E. Illios » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:11 pm

Hi all.

I'm currently in the middle of converting the [url=http://www.eilistraee.com/chosen/language.php:325h4mz9]drow translator[/url:325h4mz9] for the new site. And I had a few questions about how people use it. :)

Please, don't give answers based on what you think makes things easier for me. Some things that you might think make things more difficult for me might make them easier, and the other way around. Honest answers are much more helpful to me. :)

So the questions:


[b:325h4mz9]Do you use the translator?[/b:325h4mz9]
If you don't then that's fine, but there's probably no point in answering the rest of the questions.

[b:325h4mz9]Do you ever set the language selection to anything other than "auto"?[/b:325h4mz9]
In case you don't know, you can let the translator try to figure out what language you're trying to translate to (which is the default), or you can specify that you want to translate to drow or to common, or have it translate both. But do you ever use any of the options other than the default "auto"?

[b:325h4mz9]Do you ever check the "plain text" checkbox?[/b:325h4mz9]
Normally when it gives you a translation it adds all kinds of extra formatting, italics for "official" words, blue for words that haven't been confirmed yet, red for words that weren't translated (with a link to add the word), and a link for words with email addresses of the person who added the word. Using the checkbox removes all that extra formatting. Do you ever use it?

[b:325h4mz9]Do you ever use wildcards in your searches?[/b:325h4mz9]
It's possible to add a * character, which is interpreted as "any characters here". This basically allows you to return a whole list of results. In the translation it will then use the first match (so not all that useful), but in the added dictionary below the translation it'll list all matches. So if you search for "f*" then it'll list all words starting with f (in both directions no less). Do you ever use this?

[b:325h4mz9]Do you use email addresses?[/b:325h4mz9]
When you add a new word to the database, you can also include your email address. What it then does is that whenever someone has your word in their translation it'll include a link with your email address so that people can email you about the word. I originally added this because the translator I based mine on (the Drow Fortress one) had that functionality. But honestly I think it's probably better [i:325h4mz9]not[/i:325h4mz9] to do this and I see little point for it. But maybe people do use this or do like it being there. Is that the case?

[b:325h4mz9]Do you ever add new words?[/b:325h4mz9]
The translator has the ability to add new translations, which is what makes the language so extensive (and probably causes there to be some divergence in the translators as employed by different websites now; in the beginning there was only one translator). Do you ever add new words to the database?

[b:325h4mz9]Do you use the add word link?[/b:325h4mz9]
When doing a translation it'll list all untranslated words (because there isn't a translation for it) in red with a link to the add word form so that you can easily add a new word for it. Do you ever use this (assumign that you add new words to begin with)?

[b:325h4mz9]Do you ever use the [url=http://www.eilistraee.com/chosen/langua ... p:325h4mz9]mini translator[/url:325h4mz9]?[/b:325h4mz9]
I would hope not, since I just found out that it's not actually working at the moment. But when I created the translator years ago I thought that it could be useful to have this little translator window that you could use when playing games or such without the browser obscuring the whole screen. With the tabbed browing people do these days I don't think little popup windows work that well anymore anyway, but even so do you find this a useful feature or do you never use it?

[b:325h4mz9]Do you ever use the dictionaries?[/b:325h4mz9]
We have a [url=http://www.eilistraee.com/chosen/langua ... w:325h4mz9]drow-to-common dictionary[/url:325h4mz9] and a [url=http://www.eilistraee.com/chosen/langua ... n:325h4mz9]common-to-drow dictionary[/url:325h4mz9] which list all the (official and confirmed) words in the database in nicely formatted columns. Do you ever use these pages?

[b:325h4mz9]Do you ever print out the dictionary?[/b:325h4mz9]
The reason that the two dictionary pages are current black text on a white background without any of the site graphics around it is so that it can easily be printed out (or that was the idea at least). Do you ever do this?

[b:325h4mz9]If you could just pass the translation query in the url, would you use it?[/b:325h4mz9]
i.e. if you could do something like this: "http://www.eilistraee.com/chosen/language.php?t=I want to translate this sentence." Would you use it? Something like that could be useful for using the Quick Search feature that Firefox has (don't know about other browsers). It would also allow people to link directly to a translation. Do you think that would be useful and/or would you use it?

[b:325h4mz9]Any comments or things that you would like to see for the drow translator?[/b:325h4mz9]
Basically anything else you want to say, or any additional features that you would like to see supported (no promises though).


That's all the questions that I can think of. Your input would be much appreciated. Thank you for your time. :)

[i:325h4mz9]<goes back to working on the new website>[/i:325h4mz9]


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Re: Question: How do you use the drow translator?

Post by Bhaern Quel » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:01 am

Do you use the translator? Yes
Do you ever set the language selection to anything other than "auto"? Yes, sometimes needful
Do you ever check the "plain text" checkbox? No
Do you ever use wildcards in your searches? Do not recall, maybe once or twice.
Do you use email addresses? No
Do you use the add word link? No
Do you use the add word link? No
Do you ever use the mini translator? Yes
Do you ever use the dictionaries? Yes
Do you ever print out the dictionary? Yes
If you could just pass the translation query in the url, would you use it? Unsure

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Re: Question: How do you use the drow translator?

Post by Irennan » Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:04 am

[b:70ul0b5j][i:70ul0b5j]-Do you ever set the language selection to anything other than "auto"?[/i:70ul0b5j][/b:70ul0b5j]
Actually I've never used the ''auto'' option, but if it's reliable then the other two are kinda pointless IMO.
[b:70ul0b5j][i:70ul0b5j]-[/i:70ul0b5j][/b:70ul0b5j][b:70ul0b5j][i:70ul0b5j]Do you ever check the "plain text" checkbox?[/i:70ul0b5j][/b:70ul0b5j]
No.
[b:70ul0b5j][i:70ul0b5j]-Do you ever use wildcards in your searches?[/i:70ul0b5j][/b:70ul0b5j]
Never used this, but sounds useful.
[b:70ul0b5j][i:70ul0b5j]-Do you use email addresses?[/i:70ul0b5j][/b:70ul0b5j]
No.
[i:70ul0b5j][b:70ul0b5j]-Do you ever add new words?[/b:70ul0b5j][/i:70ul0b5j]
I've not added anything up to now, but if I came across a word that is missing, I'd add it.
[i:70ul0b5j][b:70ul0b5j]-Do you use the add word link?[/b:70ul0b5j][/i:70ul0b5j]
Sounds useful.
[i:70ul0b5j][b:70ul0b5j]-Do you ever use the mini translator?[/b:70ul0b5j][/i:70ul0b5j]
No.
[i:70ul0b5j][b:70ul0b5j]-Do you ever use the dictionaries?[/b:70ul0b5j][/i:70ul0b5j]
Yes.
[i:70ul0b5j][b:70ul0b5j]-Do you ever print out the dictionary?[/b:70ul0b5j][/i:70ul0b5j]
No.
[i:70ul0b5j][b:70ul0b5j]-If you could just pass the translation query in the url, would you use it?[/b:70ul0b5j][/i:70ul0b5j]
Sounds like a nice feature to me, but not necessary.
[i:70ul0b5j][b:70ul0b5j]-Any comments or things that you would like to see for the drow translator?[/b:70ul0b5j][/i:70ul0b5j]
The translator is good as it is, so nothing in particular here. Maybe a pronunciation guide for some of the most used words (finding the correct pronunciation of such terms seems to be kinda hard tho)...

And thanks again for the effort put in this site.

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Re: Question: How do you use the drow translator?

Post by Alaric Darkrose » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:10 am

All that I use it for is translations for projects that I'm working on. Sentences, etc. I don't add words or anything like that. I would like to print off the entire dictionary, but the printers that I have access to have page limits.
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Re: Question: How do you use the drow translator?

Post by Aylstra Illianniis » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:35 am

Do I set the language to anything besides auto? Yes- I usually go common to drow, since I usually start with a common phrase or sentance.
I don't use plain text or wild-cards, so no on both. No to e-mail addresses, too.
I have never added new words, but I have come across a few words that I would have liked to add, if I could come up with drow translations. Obviously, I don't use the add word link.
I've only used the mini-translator a few times, but I usually forget it's there.
Do I use the dictionaries? YES!!! I have even downloaded it as a word-processor doc so that it's always available even when I'm not on-line. However, I don't print it, as I try to limit my paper usage to only printing something when I absolutely HAVE to.
I don't really know about the rest, though a pronunciation guide does sound like a good idea.
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Re: Question: How do you use the drow translator?

Post by T'rissrak » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:48 pm

[b:kxl0xkbf]Do you use the translator?[/b:kxl0xkbf] Yes. Looking for a good translator was how I found the site.

[b:kxl0xkbf]Do you ever set the language selection to anything other than "auto"?[/b:kxl0xkbf] No.

[b:kxl0xkbf]Do you ever check the "plain text" checkbox?[/b:kxl0xkbf] No.

[b:kxl0xkbf]Do you ever use wildcards in your searches?[/b:kxl0xkbf] No, I usually look through the dictionary in the cases where it might be useful.

[b:kxl0xkbf]Do you use email addresses?[/b:kxl0xkbf] No - but I do like to know that the word may not be in established literature (especially if I found another translation somewhere else).

[b:kxl0xkbf]Do you ever add new words?[/b:kxl0xkbf] No, though I probably should since I do occationally make them up.

[b:kxl0xkbf]Do you use the add word link?[/b:kxl0xkbf] Same answer as above.

[b:kxl0xkbf]Do you ever use the [url=http://www.eilistraee.com/chosen/langua ... p:kxl0xkbf]mini translator[/url:kxl0xkbf]?[/b:kxl0xkbf] No, I just leave the translator open in a different tab.

[b:kxl0xkbf]Do you ever use the dictionaries?[/b:kxl0xkbf] Yes. It's very helpful when looking for a word to substitute for one that is not in the dictionary, to make a new form of a word and to find words I wouldn't have thought to use otherwise.

[b:kxl0xkbf]Do you ever print out the dictionary?[/b:kxl0xkbf] No.

[b:kxl0xkbf]If you could just pass the translation query in the url, would you use it?[/b:kxl0xkbf] No.

[b:kxl0xkbf]Any comments or things that you would like to see for the drow translator?[/b:kxl0xkbf] I like that some of the words have usage notes and wish more did, though I realize so very little is known. Sometimes a word has multiple options but no explanation as to the difference and sometimes a word has no options or explanation even though it is very likely that the multiple meanings of the English word have seperate words in drow. For example, the word 'light' in English refers both to the opposite of dark and the opposite of heavy, but it seems likely that the drow word 'ssussun' is only the opposite of dark.

The other translator I use, [url=http://www.grey-company.org/Maerdyn/res ... i:kxl0xkbf]House Maerdyn[/url:kxl0xkbf], has a larger text box that allows multiple lines, which I find more convenient. The copy/paste is also easier because it gives the translation not only word for word, but also in another text box. (I usually end up using both translators because this site has vocabulary that one does not, and vice versa though less so.) What I would really like (though I have never seen a translator for any language that does this) is for the translation to retain the line breaks, making it easier to read.

I use another site, [url=http://www.mindspring.com/~sylverion/nw ... m:kxl0xkbf]The Drow Dictionary[/url:kxl0xkbf], to look up grammer (for creating a new word form, mostly). It also has some quick reference lists of commonly used words and phrases that are useful. I mention it because it's an old site (last update of anything was in 1999) and I am always afraid it will dissapear, so hope someone else will incorperate that information. I also think having a phrase list where people could submit things they've developed would be both fun and helpful. Because drow is little more than a simple mirror of English (which makes the translation easy, but is the biggest joke on their superior attitude), it's the creative uses of vocabulary and idiom that allow us to make the race come alive through language.
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Re: Question: How do you use the drow translator?

Post by Shir'le E. Illios » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:33 pm

Thank you all for your replies so far. It's been most helpful. :)

I've mostly finished my work on the translator for the new site and it can now do pretty much everything the current one can. And a few additional things (like the url-passing I mentioned). I even fixed a few small bugs that are in the current translator (such as it not properly sorting the dictionaries under the translation).

There are still a few other bugs and minor features that I want to implement, but since the current translator doesn't have them they're of lower priority.

One thing that I haven't done yet is implement an administrator interface. The current translator has a (extremely simple) interface where an admin can approve and modify words. I want to implement that too (and enhance it) for the new site, but for the moment can do without (if need be I can modify entries directly in the database). It is my intention though, once the new site is up and I've implemented a language admin interface, to assign one or two people to help me maintain the language. Right now there's a large laundry list of unconfirmed words that I would like checked and confirmed (so that they'll show up in the dictionaries as well). But... lower priority.

Another thing that I haven't implemented yet is the mini translator. Hence why I asked about it and why I've got some follow up questions about it. :)


For those of you who've said that they use it (Bhaern and Aylstra primarily): What are the reasons for picking it over the main translator? How do you use the mini translator?


[quote="Irennan":116m45lq]Maybe a pronunciation guide for some of the most used words (finding the correct pronunciation of such terms seems to be kinda hard tho)...[/quote:116m45lq]
Adding pronunciations would be nice and should be possible (in a similar way that the usage guide is done). The main issues though are that, one, I don't think that there is an established pronunciation for drow. And, two, that there are a [i:116m45lq]lot[/i:116m45lq] of words in the database, none of them with pronunciation. SO it would be a lot of work to add pronunciations to all of them. Might be something to look at after the new website is done.


[quote="T'rissrak":116m45lq]I do like to know that the word may not be in established literature (especially if I found another translation somewhere else).[/quote:116m45lq]
Right now it should print any word marked as 'official' in italics ('official' meaning basically that it came from the Drow of the Underdark sourcebook). Everything else was added by others at one point or another. Even words without email were added by people at some point (they just didn't provide an email address). So I think that it already does what you want... there just aren't that many official words.

For the translator I've also made a distinction between "new" and "confirmed". When someone adds a word it's marked as "new" to begin with. This means that in translations it'll show up in blue and that the word won't show up in any dictionaries (neither below the translation nor in the big dictionaries). A language administrator (at the moment that's just me) would then have to go in, check the word (that it's not some dirty word or something too close to existing words, etc) and mark it as 'confirmed'. Though since I haven't done much of this I've got a [i:116m45lq]huge[/i:116m45lq] backlog of unconfirmed words. At the moment there are over 3500 words in the database marked as 'new' (that would need to be checked and confirmed). That's only a couple dozen shy of the number of 'confirmed' words (and there's about 280 'official' words).

Long story short, beyond those 280 words I don't think that there's really any further way to distinguish what words are in establish literature. The only other thing I can think of is to mark where the break lies with the original Drow Fortress language list (that I think every drow translator is based on). But even that list was primarily words added by people whenever they came across a word that didn't exist yet.

[quote="T'rissrak":116m45lq]I like that some of the words have usage notes and wish more did, though I realize so very little is known.[/quote:116m45lq]
It's pretty much a similar problem to adding pronunciations; there are simply a [i:116m45lq]lot[/i:116m45lq] of words to add details to and often times we simply don't know as we don't know how the person who added the word in the first place intended it. On top of that I'm sure that people are using words wrongly frequently. To take your example, if we had a separate word for "light" as in weight then if people searched for "light" in that manner it would still first find the illumination version and people might not look far enough to see that there are other possible translations.

I don't think that there's really a way around it unless you appoint someone to decide these things and go through the database in detail fixing all problems and filling in missing information. But that a [i:116m45lq]huge[/i:116m45lq] amount of work. So we do with what we've got. :)

[quote="T'rissrak":116m45lq]The other translator I use, [url=http://www.grey-company.org/Maerdyn/res ... i:116m45lq]House Maerdyn[/url:116m45lq][/quote:116m45lq]
I know it, yes. They launched their about the same time I did mine (a bit earlier I think). Both of us launching our translators in response to the Drow Fortress disappearing.

I know that our language databases probably diverged since then. In a way I like to think of it as different dialects. Though it would be nice to add their new translations to the database as well.

[quote="T'rissrak":116m45lq]has a larger text box that allows multiple lines, which I find more convenient.[/quote:116m45lq]
I think that would be easy enough for me to add to mine.

[quote="T'rissrak":116m45lq]The copy/paste is also easier because it gives the translation not only word for word, but also in another text box.[/quote:116m45lq]
I considered that originally. But I felt that leaving the text boxes would feel a bit... clinical. And I thought that copying the text as I have the translation would be no more difficult. There are some more things along the lines of providing information on the translation that I'd like to do; I might look at that after the new site is up.

[quote="T'rissrak":116m45lq]What I would really like (though I have never seen a translator for any language that does this) is for the translation to retain the line breaks, making it easier to read.[/quote:116m45lq]
I think that this too should be easy enough to add. I think that mine already retains all special characters (punctuation marks and everything), so it would just be a matter of changing to HTML formatting of however the text ends up being used.

[quote="T'rissrak":116m45lq]I use another site, [url=http://www.mindspring.com/~sylverion/nw ... m:116m45lq]The Drow Dictionary[/url:116m45lq][/quote:116m45lq]
Now we're really looking at the history of the drow language. As I understand it started in Drow of the Underdark (though probably a Dragon magazine before that) and from there it was taken up by some AOL Neverwinter Nights (i.e. not the BioWare one) players. After that their dictionary was taken up by the Drow Fortress who added a way for people to add new words. And after the Drow Fortress website went down sites such as House Maerdyn and mine implemented the next generation of drow translator. :)

[quote="T'rissrak":116m45lq]to look up grammer (for creating a new word form, mostly)[/quote:116m45lq]
I already have a [url=http://www.eilistraee.com/chosen/langua ... r:116m45lq]grammar page[/url:116m45lq] up on the site (I still have to put that on the new site, but it's just a page of text and thus easy). In fact I copied the Drow Dictionary one and just changed the examples to be a bit better suited to an Eilistraeen site.

[quote="T'rissrak":116m45lq]It also has some quick reference lists of commonly used words and phrases that are useful.[/quote:116m45lq]
I don't have that, but again that would be easy enough to add (again it's just a page of text), particularly with the new site's CMS.

Doing something where people can submit new phrases is possible too, but that definitely takes a fair bit more work. And would have to be administrated to prevent spam and inappropriate phrases. I also fear that it might grow the list too big to be useful too quickly. Even so, it might be nice to have a "traveler's guide to drow" or such. ;)


Anyway, I might fiddle with things a bit more before bringing the new site online. At the moment though most of my focus is on theming the new site (i.e. making it look pretty) which is a fair bit of work and I've only got a few more weeks left to complete it. Of course, after that's all done I can (and want to) go back to the translator and make it much better.


Love -x-x-x-

Shir'le
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Re: Question: How do you use the drow translator?

Post by Bhaern Quel » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:47 pm

[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":lgiqvudn]

For those of you who've said that they use it (Bhaern and Aylstra primarily): What are the reasons for picking it over the main translator? How do you use the mini translator?
[/quote:lgiqvudn]

For a quick phase like "You are a friend" the mini is quick enough.
Also use to translate Drow to common that others post in Drow.

It clearly would not matter much if it disappeared, but handy for quick simple phases.

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Re: Question: How do you use the drow translator?

Post by Micarlin TSarra » Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:03 pm

Vendui

I use the translator for Role play on IMVU. To answer your questions.

Do you ever set the language selection to anything other than "auto"?
IN THE BEGINNING..HA. At first I would set the translator to specific, but lately I have found that the auto works great from common to drow and back again.
-Do you ever check the "plain text" checkbox?
No.
-Do you ever use wildcards in your searches?
I never have...but could be a useful tool.
-Do you use email addresses?
No.
-Do you ever add new words?
I have not as of yet. Still new to Drow RP, so if I ever come across anything I will certainly add it.
-Do you use the add word link?
Have not
-Do you ever use the mini translator?
No.
-Do you ever use the dictionaries?
Yes. I have used it for specific words and those I could not copy and paste into the translator (imvu is funny that way)
-Do you ever print out the dictionary?
No....But what a great idea!!!
-If you could just pass the translation query in the url, would you use it?
Sounds like a nice feature to me, but not necessary.
-Any comments or things that you would like to see for the drow translator?
I would like to see a way to switch back and forth with out having to return to translator. Once translated perhaps put the inquiry bar on the translation page?


Thank you for the best translator I have found.

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Re: Question: How do you use the drow translator?

Post by Aylstra Illianniis » Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:17 am

I use the mini-translater for the same reasons as Bhaern, though as I said, I often forget it is there. I would like to add that if you need help with adding new words, adding in or checking some of the unconfirmed or new words, and that sort of thing, I could perhaps lend a hand. I am something of a linguist (VERY amatuer, mind you, but it is something I am good at) and might be able to assist. Language translation and pronunciation seems to be a knack of mine (Latin, and a smattering of Japanese, Spanish, French, and Italian, mostly, but you get the idea) and I have done some playing with drow language before. If you like you can pm me and I'd be happy to help update the dictionary, as time permits.
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