Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

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Re: Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

Post by Irennan »

[quote="Aylstra Illianniis":9se2qnvq]How far into WotSQ did you get? Cause they DO have ambitions , ideas, and goals of their own, personal wants and needs that they try to pursue. They are no more "automatons" than any given religious vealot in RL. Simply because they are indoctrinated from birth does NOT mean they have no free will. They simply have no means to implement it for the most part, and for that matter, most never even question that they SHOULD. That is the simplicity of Lolth's trap- they believe that her way is the only way because they don't KNOW any other way, and simply assume that that is how life is for everyone. They're not mindless, they're just like little kids who are easily led. They may be evil by design, but it's because they are like a kid who is punished for doing something that comes naturally, and then learns (like the dog training) not to ever do it again- in this case, seeking freedom and happiness. Beat a dog often enough, it will learn to cower automatically without even being threatend. Drow are much the same.... [/quote:9se2qnvq]

Yep, that is my point (maybe I wasn't clear about it). I've never said that they are mindless, or that they don't have a personality (and why would I? It'd clearly be absurd, and why would E. and V. even bother with them if it was true), simply that their identity is suppressed by their religion and society (and as result, they do combine the most [i:9se2qnvq]annoying[/i:9se2qnvq] traits ever known to mankind, as I said in one of my previous post). They have freedom in theory, but are brainwashed and limited to the point of not having any means to implement it, or to even think that they could do it. Once again, they are pawns, oppressed, puppets in Lolth's hands. Not movers and charismatic villains, as someone who is ''evil'' because some random goddess indoctrinated him/her, forcing a life of sacrifice, suffering, ever-going struggle and consuming hatred, where individuals are totally worthless as persons upon him/her, doesn't inspire hate or fear, but pity. It is indeed sad, not villainous. You make a fitting comparison, a dog being trained. How the hell can a race of people who are like trained animals be valid and [i:9se2qnvq]charismatic[/i:9se2qnvq] villains? They can be interesting foes, because of their contrasting nature, but it [i:9se2qnvq]needs[/i:9se2qnvq] the siblings to be played out, otherwise the dark elves are just beings who pathetically live and die according to Lolth's whim (and this is the reason why if their plotting and scheming side was the one mainly portrayed in a book, I wouldn't bother. They do it because they are forced, ''trained''. That's more than enough to turn my interest off. Unless in said book their sad situation also emerged, in the form of awareness and of trying to break free, but this would need E. and V. and their struggle to be played out in its potential). This was WotC's purpose in removing Eilistraee from canon, besides simplification, which is why Vhaeraun was removed. However the only thing they managed to accomplish in doing so is making the drow boring and depriving the FR of very popular, meaningful and valid characters.

[quote:9se2qnvq]I don't disagree with you by any means about drow being more interesting with them around, but I do think that even WITH the deletion of that material, most of the info that has come out has been more positive. Also, I don't think they are going back to GH roots by any means- and I would certainly not think so with Ed being head of the new FR design team. He has enough influence on his own to insure that they will not become boring. If anything, I'd like to think they are going with a more "drow are the hidden threat" approach. Or, with the RotU and Menzo stuff coming out, maybe it's more of the "drow are the monster under the bed that everyone always warned you about" approach. And the monsters are coming out to play..... :devil:[/quote:9se2qnvq]

Alas, I haven't seen anything ''more positive'' being said about Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (and I don't know what could be more positive than the return they were supposed to make in the book, a return I still hope they will make in the future, hopefully with that material published online): the Sundering probably won't return them to canon, as the returned gods will be unknown. Nothing says that they and their quest will play a role in the new era, and I doubt that, seeing what WotC decided despite fans and even authors want them back. And even if they make the drow ''the hidden threat'', they will still return to their GH roots if E. and V. are not there in the official FR (besides, dark elves were supposed to be exactly that in GH, AFAIK: hidden monsters who are simply tools in their deity's hand, just like they are now in FR, only less powerful). Either way, the siblings are a deal breaker about drow for me, as my only interest in the race is in the two them, in the struggle and the story of the race that they represent.
Last edited by Irennan on Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

Post by Irennan »

I've taken the time to put together a request to release the cut content with Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as a DDI article. If anyone is interested in having a say in this, the thread is [url=http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... 1:2tpxnax3]here[/url:2tpxnax3].
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Re: Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

Post by Aylstra Illianniis »

Why are you so sure that the Sundering won't return them to canon? It's at least two more years before 5th/Next comes out. At this point, all we have is a few vague but promising statements on what the Sundering WILL do- which is return ALL the gods. We don't even know anything concrete about the Sundering itself. For all we know, the elves (perhaps including drow) may play a major part in it. Drizzt is getting his own book in it, so there is obviously going to be some impact on drow (or at least on his corner of the world- which kind of includes Menzo by proxy). I can actually see there being another High Magic ritual involved, or perhaps the Sundering undoes the original elven ritual. We just don't know at this juncture.

All we can do is speculate, but the evidence so far suggests that they are AT LEAST open to the idea of bringing them back- or they would never have bothered to create that material in the first place! You don't write a whole bunch of new lore for something you know you do not intend to use- it's a waste of time and effort for the designers AND writers. Their time would have been better spent on other portions of the book, in that case. Since they DID write it, that indicates they intended to use it, at least originally. I've written tons of lore for my own campaigns that never got used- not because I purposely discarded it, but simply because I never found the opportunity to use it. They are doing the same thing, except that they get PAID for it. There is probably a whole book's worth of lore that never made it into the new book, simply because they could not cram everything in. I doubt E and V are the ONLY things that got cut- just the most relevant part for us. But writing an entire chapter that was never going to see publication just doesn't make sense to me from a desgn or writing standpoint. As a writer and world-builder myself, there are much better ways to spend my time and effort on areas that I actually plan to use, rather than on something that is useless or has no purpose for my campaigns. Do you REALLY think WotC- which is a BUSINESS- would bother wasting their time that way? No. It's not good use of the design team's time or resources. They MUST have intended to use it at some point. So saying it's just being swept under the rug is really sort of illogical.

Re: What I meant by positive earlier was the more positive direction WotC seems to be going with FR and D&D in general. From what I've seen, they have heard the fans' complaints, and this time around they are listening. Time will tell if E and V are included in this, of course, but with two years before we really know anything for certain it's a little over-cynical to simply ASSUME that they won't be included. Heck, they already WERE included- it just got edited out. And it's a little crass to assume that it was "to keep them out" or as a tool to keep the drow as strictly evil puppets. We DON'T know the reasons, and even the authors themselves are basically treating it as a simple editorial decision, not as some WotC plot to remove them from canon. I'm inclined to think they just didn't have the space for it. Stuff- some of it really good- gets edited out of books, both novels and scource books- all the time without it being a plot to advance some unknown agenda. It's a little early in the game to start looking for conspiracies, and a little sad to think that there would even BE one. There is no big move (AFAIK) to alienate the drow fans of the sibs. Infact, given their inclusive stance for the new edition, I'd almost bank on the opposite being true. They want to bring fans BACK, not push more of them away or KEEP the ones away that already left.
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Re: Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

Post by Irennan »

Well, you make valid points. Then, if you're right and the content with E. and V. was cut because of space, there is a good chance that people's request will be listened and the material published as a DDI article, so that WotC could get paid for it (even tho they could've fit easily in the book: come on, 120-ish pages is so slim, even the NWCS is 220-ish pages...). However, concerning the other material possibly removed before the release, we also have to consider that the content about E. and V. has a different value than -say- more info about a drow house, because it would show that complexity and variety are coming back to the FR and that fans are being listened (besides adding a whole ''new'' perspective on the drow, something that other material wouldn't be able to do), and the book was a perfect opportunity to make it clear. And then there's the fact that the section of the book wasn't commissioned but was requested by the authors, who fought to have it included but who were apparently ignored despite their efforts. And while -as I said- what you say makes sense, this is something that can't be ignored.

And, as I said, the future of the Realms may look shiny (and that's good), but that of the FR drow isn't too promising atm (even tho the possibility is there). About the Sundering, we know something concrete about it (I quoted it some posts above), and it says that gods won't be back in the sense that X, Y and Z will be announced to be back, but in the sense that gods [i:13h5lmcs]might[/i:13h5lmcs] be back, it just unknown (in-setting I mean) who actually is. So priests worshiping a god could receive spells from another, and while this could -obviously- work fine in games (but, then I could have any deity I like in my game even without this), it won't assure that some deities will live on in stories and novels about their quests and followers in the new era of the FR. Besides, as I said, the solution proposed by the authors of the Menzo book to return the siblings is way more fitting and flavorful than Ao's magic, and it completes and respects the previous lore (as much as I hate it) instead of making it basically go *poof*.
By reading some posts at CK, I have the impression that they will make a list of 20 among the most powerful and commonly worshiped deities, and in addition to this it will be said that ''gods rise and fall, so there could be other deities besides the ones listed''. However this automatically excludes some of the flavorful and characterizing deities who are not frequently worshiped (like E. and V.), and for them the only hope to see development consists of ''appearences'' in sourcebooks or novels. I also gather that the marginalization of E. and V. could be due to the fact that WotC wants to make the drow more exotic and mysterious, even tho -paradoxically- their recent action clearly points in the opposite directions, and even tho E. and V. would make the drow even [i:13h5lmcs]more[/i:13h5lmcs] exotic and mysterious if anything. If this was true, then WotC's decision would clearly be a design choice (a wrong one for what they would be attempting to achieve in that case), not a matter of room.

That said, I (obviously) hope that I'm just being overly distrusting and pessimistic and that you're right about their intentions, as what you said is totally reasonable.
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Re: Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

Post by Shir'le E. Illios »

[quote="Irennan":21ale01t]I've taken the time to put together a request to release the cut content with Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as a DDI article. If anyone is interested in having a say in this, the thread is [url=http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... 1:21ale01t]here[/url:21ale01t].[/quote:21ale01t]
When, in that post, you talk of Eilistraee being "a star in a sea of inky darkness" it strikes me again how closely that follows the stated intent for 4E being "points of light". And again it strikes me how... perplexing it is then that they cut the one deity that most perfectly reflected that. Completely baffling and an indication to me that they have completely lots the plot.


Anyway, regarding the Sundering I really like it that it isn't known which deities exist and which don't, that they're kept in the background with their followers always questioning, never truly certain. Perhaps it is just my own preference for that kind of setting. But I do believe that if the gods walk among mortals and directly influence things then it becomes about the gods and not about the characters. And for a roleplaying game that doesn't seem the right way to go (and kind of makes me understand why some people like to play 'epic' campaigns where they go and kill gods as it finally gives some sense of autonomy back to the characters). So for my characters I prefer the unknown as it makes them more interesting, allows me to explore personalities of complete, unshakable faith despite there being no evidence for it, personalities filled with doubt but putting on a façade, etc, etc.

But for me, the player, I [i:21ale01t]need[/i:21ale01t] certain assurances. Not so much that she[sup:21ale01t]*[/sup:21ale01t] is alive, but I need assurances that she will be [i:21ale01t]included[/i:21ale01t]. What I mean by that is that she has a clear presence in the source materials. I want guarantees that I can expect articles about her followers, about places sacred to her faith, about the lore held by her faithful, etc. I don't want a list of "at least these deities are alive and there could be more", I want a list showing the deities that will be talked about in future material. None of the deities on that list would be certain to be alive or dead, but they all are certain to receive further content. [i:21ale01t]That[/i:21ale01t] is what I, as a player, want... to know that there will be future content surrounding Eilistraee. To know that there is a reason to give them my money again (which I don't have now).

Because without that I am no better off than I am now. Saying "she could be alive; just add her if you want to" doesn't improve my situation any as I already have that now. It is dreadfully easy to have Eilistraee be alive in my campaigns. Maybe my setting is before she died, maybe she came back, maybe she never died, maybe I'm not even using the Realms and have my own setting where she just happens to exist too. saying "she could be alive" and then leaving it at that doesn't do anything for me. It doesn't give me anything I don't already have.

one could ask why then I need her to return when I can just make up whatever I want in my own settings and stories. The reason for this is shared creativity. if she is included and present in the 'canon' setting then that means that other authors will expand upon her. Authors such as Eric and Brian. It means that if I buy a Champions of Valor then I might find a Darkmaiden's leap that I could include. Or if I buy a Tangled Webs then I might find Liriel dancing for the goddess and use that as inspiration. It means that there is a unified language that fans can use to enrich the setting and their playing together, giving rise to things such as Sanctuary. If WotC doesn't make Eilistraee part of the Forgotten Realms language, then I see no point in buying into a language I don't speak.

Ideally, for me, Forgotten Realms Next will be that: giving us a shared language. one that includes Eilistraee.

But I'm not at all convinced that they're taking the right course with the Sundering. Yet [i:21ale01t]another[/i:21ale01t] big Realms-shaking event. That sounds to me that it would only make thing even more messy than they already are. Creating yet another era, making it even more confusing what version of the Realms people are playing in. I think that this stems from them trying to please everyone, having become desperate now that things are slipping between their fingers. but I feel that they're going about it all wrong.

I strongly feel that the only way that they might have a chance of pleasing everyone is not with another Realm-shaking event to fracture things even more, but with a true and complete reboot. lose absolutely [i:21ale01t]all[/i:21ale01t] of the history and start again from page one, start again fresh, including only those things that are good and leave out those that are bad. And this doesn't have to be (in fact can't be) a return to pre-Spellplague, but could reforge the setting strong and new, yet familiar to anyone of any era preference. This setting could, for example, have the existence of the Dancing Maiden with questions about whether Eilistraee exists, whether she's alive or dead, etc. I truly believe that such a reboot can make the Realms stronger and a more coherent, cleaner, more understood setting without the massive mess that it is now. As an added bonus (for WotC) it means that they can sell everything from scratch again too as all the lore will be new again.

But such a thing will also be very difficult to do well, requiring true masters with a deep understanding not just of the Realms, but of what appeals to people about the Realms. And it requires constant vigilance and supervision as otherwise there is the very real risk of authors (officially) bringing back some of the broken crap, opening the floodgates for the entire mess of the current Realms to muddy things again. All it takes is a "but it's a parallel plane" or "Ao rebooted time" or such and everything spills over making things even more broken. And I'm not even certain that it actually [i:21ale01t]will[/i:21ale01t] work in pleasing everyone, that it will bring people back. It's just the only thing that I think has a [i:21ale01t]chance[/i:21ale01t] to.

The only other viable option for them is to pretty much dismiss part of their fans, which in the end likely comes down towards choosing between their pre-4E and 4E fans. That way they can concentrate on one or the other and do them right. Either say "the Spellplague didn't happen; we're rolling that back and tough luck for those who liked that setting" or "the Spellplague [i:21ale01t]did[/i:21ale01t] happen and we're keeping it; tough luck for those who hated the changes". Because the course they're on now they strongly risk alienating [i:21ale01t]both[/i:21ale01t] sides, fracturing things even further. As said, if Eilistraee isn't clearly stated to be included in the Next Realms, then I have absolutely zero interest in it and they won't see me back. And at the same time they're just muddying the waters for those fans they've got now, who might leave as well.

I hold out hope for the Next Realms, maybe they'll approach it the way I envision though either way it will be very hard to deal with all the crap we'll have to wade through. I doubt that I can convince them that the path they're on is the wrong one, that they really should just start fresh.

Regardless, I know Eilistraee still exists for me and the only question here is if I'll have any reason to give Wizards of the Coast more of my money in the future to help enrich her for me. They've already missed one big chance, a second strike after killing her in the first place. Three strikes and you're out.

Last chance.


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[sup:21ale01t]*[/sup:21ale01t] While I talk specifically about Eilistraee (for hopefully obvious reasons), what I say really goes for any deity, including Vhaeraun or any others.
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Re: Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

Post by Irennan »

[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":23oizvvn][quote="Irennan":23oizvvn]I've taken the time to put together a request to release the cut content with Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as a DDI article. If anyone is interested in having a say in this, the thread is [url=http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... 1:23oizvvn]here[/url:23oizvvn].[/quote:23oizvvn]
When, in that post, you talk of Eilistraee being "a star in a sea of inky darkness" it strikes me again how closely that follows the stated intent for 4E being "points of light". And again it strikes me how... perplexing it is then that they cut the one deity that most perfectly reflected that. Completely baffling and an indication to me that they have completely lots the plot.


Anyway, regarding the Sundering I really like it that it isn't known which deities exist and which don't, that they're kept in the background with their followers always questioning, never truly certain. Perhaps it is just my own preference for that kind of setting. But I do believe that if the gods walk among mortals and directly influence things then it becomes about the gods and not about the characters. And for a roleplaying game that doesn't seem the right way to go (and kind of makes me understand why some people like to play 'epic' campaigns where they go and kill gods as it finally gives some sense of autonomy back to the characters). So for my characters I prefer the unknown as it makes them more interesting, allows me to explore personalities of complete, unshakable faith despite there being no evidence for it, personalities filled with doubt but putting on a façade, etc, etc.

But for me, the player, I [i:23oizvvn]need[/i:23oizvvn] certain assurances. Not so much that she[sup:23oizvvn]*[/sup:23oizvvn] is alive, but I need assurances that she will be [i:23oizvvn]included[/i:23oizvvn]. What I mean by that is that she has a clear presence in the source materials. I want guarantees that I can expect articles about her followers, about places sacred to her faith, about the lore held by her faithful, etc. I don't want a list of "at least these deities are alive and there could be more", I want a list showing the deities that will be talked about in future material. None of the deities on that list would be certain to be alive or dead, but they all are certain to receive further content. [i:23oizvvn]That[/i:23oizvvn] is what I, as a player, want... to know that there will be future content surrounding Eilistraee. To know that there is a reason to give them my money again (which I don't have now).

Because without that I am no better off than I am now. Saying "she could be alive; just add her if you want to" doesn't improve my situation any as I already have that now. It is dreadfully easy to have Eilistraee be alive in my campaigns. Maybe my setting is before she died, maybe she came back, maybe she never died, maybe I'm not even using the Realms and have my own setting where she just happens to exist too. saying "she could be alive" and then leaving it at that doesn't do anything for me. It doesn't give me anything I don't already have.

one could ask why then I need her to return when I can just make up whatever I want in my own settings and stories. The reason for this is shared creativity. if she is included and present in the 'canon' setting then that means that other authors will expand upon her. Authors such as Eric and Brian. It means that if I buy a Champions of Valor then I might find a Darkmaiden's leap that I could include. Or if I buy a Tangled Webs then I might find Liriel dancing for the goddess and use that as inspiration. It means that there is a unified language that fans can use to enrich the setting and their playing together, giving rise to things such as Sanctuary. If WotC doesn't make Eilistraee part of the Forgotten Realms language, then I see no point in buying into a language I don't speak.

Ideally, for me, Forgotten Realms Next will be that: giving us a shared language. one that includes Eilistraee.

[/quote:23oizvvn]

Yes, this is exactly what I meant in my previous posts here and in my posts at CK, only with better words. After all, her followers and quest having a role in stories and novels set in the new era is what can make her truly alive (in canon). I even pointed this out as one of the reason to publish what was planned for Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as a DDI article. And yes, they've missed a huge opportunity with that book, it would be stupid of WotC to waste a fitting return for such well received characters, like the one proposed by Brian and Eric over ''Ao [i:23oizvvn]might[/i:23oizvvn] have brought them back''. We'll see whether they're actually listening as they said or not with what they'll do with this lore, because Eilistraee and Vhaeraun definitely are the two drow deities that [i:23oizvvn]truly[/i:23oizvvn] belong to the Realms.
Last edited by Irennan on Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

Post by Bhaern Quel »

Been watching as well, just play in right time you have deity. What 5th will offer, though they swore would be no need for a fifth is yet to be seen.
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Re: Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

Post by Irennan »

^This won't work for me. I can already do that, and playing a campaign is not the only interest people have in the FR. Also, even if they wrote stories, novels etc... about characters set in 1370s they wouldn't be the same as if they were set in 1500s (at least for stories concerning characters that got the short end of the stick for no valid reason). The reason is that in the first case there would be some BS canon (which doesn't add anything to the Realms and was put there as a deus ex machina to get rid of things) to greatly limit the possible developments of such stories, and making what they could accomplish kind of vain (and no, it's not the same thing as reading about the past of someone who died actually achieving something relevant, in a fitting way). Restoring what was lost in the new era would instead open the possibilities to new stories with old feel and open ending (and while this can be overly ''complex'' with human characters, deities and long lived demihumans could easily be restored...).
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Re: Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

Post by Aylstra Illianniis »

According to the design team, the Sundering will be the LAST RSE. After this event, the Realms is supposed to return to a more stable setting, and be given back to the players and fans. Also, regarding the Sundering, we really do not know yet just exactly what it will entail, or what effects it will have on the Realms yet, though from the things I've heard/read from the designers and writers on CK or at the keynote address, discussion panel, etc, it sounds like they intend to change or "fix" much of what was wrong with 4th, and also smooth over prior lore as well. I believe we will know more after the novel series comes out. There has been almost nothing yet on which gods will or will not be supported, and for that matter, which will be included in future novels or sourcebooks. So far, all we REALLY have is a few names mentioned as certainties. Anything beyond that is simply speculation, and won't be decided until 5th/Next is released two years from now. That's a LONG time to work out what is or isn't going to he included!

Time will tell what we end up with- until then, I'm prepared to wait and see. It's the same approach I used for 4th, when I heard/read all the rumors both good and bad. It was the right one to take then, as I waited until I had looked at a copy of the 4th FRCS and played a game using 4th rules-set before deciding it wasn't my cup of tea. What I don't understand is why anyone is rushing to judgement, when they only JUST made the announcement at Gen-Con this month! For heaven's sake, even the writers and designers themsleves don't know anything concrete yet!!! They're only just BEGINNING to make those decisions, so how can any of US say what is or is not going to be supported??!! That's like saying the cake will fall before you've even mixed the ingredients, much less put it in the oven. I, for one, prefer to wait and see how it comes out of the oven before saying that it's under-cooked.... :roll: :? :/
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Re: Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

Post by Bhaern Quel »

Well one of the James said all deities will be back, however that could be like Ed Greenwood being asked to write 300,000 words, because the editors are planning to publish about 250,0000 words. Oh Ed has admitted that he always tries to get content though that exceeded rating guidelines, not sure how many of 50,0000 cut words did that.
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Re: Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

Post by Irennan »

Well, according to what's floating around on the net, all deities [i:wx5z4wci]might[/i:wx5z4wci] be back if the DM wishes, but it has always been so, it's nothing new. Also -I said it many times- Ao snapping his fingers and solving the situation doesn't seem an interesting solution of the problem: while it could be acceptable for the deities who simply went *poof* in the Spellplague, I'd like Eilistraee and Vhaeraun returning while completing (or better, giving a sense) to the ending of those damned books (their ending was purposely left kind of vague -even what happened to the Dark Maiden is arguable-, but assuming she 'died' it wouldn't matter whether Eilistraee was taken by the game or she sacrificed: what happened would simply suck in the 1st case, or be unfitting for her goal in the 2nd: abandoning the vast majority of drow to offer to a very small number of them something they didn't need or wish for is just not her -- actually it doesn't make much sense at all). This is why I'm so hugely disappointed that the content about them was removed from that sourcebook, and why I so much wish for it to be published...
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Re: Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

Post by Aylstra Illianniis »

The LP series as I see it: The ending was vague for a reason- it left them an out in case the idea was not well-received (it wasn't). Also, if one reads it very carefully, she did not appear in the Astral, as the other "dead" gods did (Kiaransalee simply crumbled to dust, but Selvatarm most definitely showed up there), instead she simply "disappeared", and Corellon took her spot at the board- this may have been her plan all along. Perhaps she KNEW she could not win, and gave her place in the game to him intentionally. This would not have been so much a sacrifice as a completely new gambit- switching opponents in the middle of a game to put Lolth off-balance. While she DID inhabit Quilue's body when the sword decapped her, that would have been no more than an avatar, according to the (then) rules of the game (meaning D&D here). Fourth ed came out just after all this, so the rules change occured AFTER her supposed death. Either way, by the rules dealing with deities acording to the Tablets of Fate, and Ao's decrees, etc, killing an avatar does NOT kill the deity itself. Only killing him/her on their OWN plane does that. She wasn't even IN her plane/domain, she was on Toril. When she killed Vaerhuan (and I still have my doubts about that, too), it was in the Planes, but not in HIS domain, but her own. Then again, I'm not sure if the planar stricture extends to killing the attacker on your own plane/domain, where the defending deity takes over the attacker's portfolio. That's never been as clear, AFAIK.

Point is- if the novels (which I gather Smedmen is fond of going "by the rules of D&D") played out according to the then-current rules of the game, Eil should not even BE dead at all. She is probably just "hidden" from her followers, much like Lolth was during her silence. As for what was done to her followers- ie, the change back into Ssri'Tel'Quessir- that seems more like a means of bringing them back into the fold of elvenkind than as a means of "salvation"- they already HAD that, simply be virtue of being her faithful in the first place. The novels even made a big deal about that, when Cavatina was so upset about not being "redeemed" as the other drowess (I forget her name) was, she had never NEEDED to be. But surface elves would not have seen the distinction, and thus, the need to show "proof" that her followers were, in fact, "saved", by reverting them to their original state. The other elven races would then have little choice but to accept them back, as it would be a sign that they were no longer a part of the disgraced branch. Keep in mind, that also included all fo the non-tainted Miyeritar descendants, as well (and it seems there were quite a few of these, even after so long- drow inbreeding within Houses seems to have kept SOME lines "piure", at least!) but not drow who had the taint- Baenre, for instance, had NO members changed, as far as we know. But they were originally an Illithiiri house, anyway.

Also, we've had some very definite word that ALL deities are "returned"- even Erik De'Bie has said as much, and he's working on the current design. I'd HOPE he knows what he's talking about. I'll be happy to take his word for it, in lieu of any more definitive statements from WotC themselves. The news coming from a writer is good enough for me. They've no reason to lie to us, after all. That would be counter to their interests. As for "play in the era your deity is alive", that doesn't seem to be what they are even saying here- but simply that "all eras are supported now, and all deities are back/never left." That's two separate statements, not the same as "we will support x deity in y era".
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Re: Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

Post by Irennan »

^ This makes sense, and it is the most plausible solution, which also works with having Eilistraee-ML giving away her divinity for the 'sacrifice', because maybe that was the only way to swap places with Corellon (who -btw- isn't doing crap for the struggle for drow freedom: his clerics still kill every dark elf on sight and hate them no matter what. And he [i:ms2pbgvy]is[/i:ms2pbgvy] the responsible for the 'genius move' that created the Descent...), thus becoming archfey or whatever. It also doesn't detract from Eilistraee's fierce determination in pursuing her goal because she would still be fighting for her people.

The turning back to pre descent isn't something I like, tho: Eilistraeens have no problem with being drow, they don't turn their back to their race, but come to even risk their lives to give its members the possibility to live a life worthy of this name. The transformation removes much of this and -honestly- is just a kind of replica of the original sin being removed by Jesus' sacrifice...
Most important fact is: do EIlistraeens drow and Miyeritari (whatever number they are, and whaterver number survived after they strived to run away from the UD without drow-ish senses) actually [i:ms2pbgvy]want[/i:ms2pbgvy] to be dark elves again (would someone like Liriel want it)? The worst part of this story, along with the removal of the Dark Seldarine, is that the battle for freedom of mortals isn't being fought by -mortals- but by deities who use them as pawns, making all of this kind of pointless and ugly (and clashes violently with what Eilistraee [i:ms2pbgvy]and[/i:ms2pbgvy] Vhaeraun stand for).


However, at the end of the day our speculations don't really matter for the (canonical) FR, because -unless WotC acknowledges new lore about the siblings- the ending of those books will still be 'polluting' (no offence to the author meant here) the realmslore canon with its nonsensical sacrifice (some angel said -hey no need for Eilistraee: the 'unwilling' were cast down and the 'willing' redeemed. Just as planned- which makes no sense and sounds like something said by some RL inquisitor), or -maybe even worse- murder...


And they said how gods will be back, Erik wrote it on his site ( a solution that I don't like at all anymore, for reasons already explained, and that doesn't add [i:ms2pbgvy]anything[/i:ms2pbgvy] that we couldn't do before).
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Re: Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

Post by Aylstra Illianniis »

I agree that I'm not overly fond of the Ao angle in this, but I'm also going to assume (until proven one way or another) that they will expand on it in some way that makes some sort of sense, much like how the original pruning was done in the Avatar series. Perhaps this might play a part in the new Sundering series, or in other novels that we haven't heard anything about yet. There are still two years until we know what the final situation will be, so I'm willing to wait to find out what actually happens. Until then, everything we bat back and forth is exactly what you said- speculation. But I'm certain from a design/story standpoint that they WILL have some sort of BG story or lore for this. They would just about HAVE to, in order to make it work. If they can do that and have it be reasonably sensible and believable, then I won't mind too much. It's no worse than anyhting that's been done in comic books, after all!
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Re: Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

Post by Irennan »

Yes, they [i:13twffwc]have[/i:13twffwc] to. This is just ''God snapped fingers, situation solved'' and needs something really cool in order to work (no matter if it has been done to comic books, the FR are not -- and I'm not much fond of comics, for what it counts...)
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