Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

[Irennan]

To quote Brian James (another designer in the new FR development team), from CK:

[quote:28gmjvlx]Originally posted by Brian R. James

As for the gods...they're ALL coming back so it's a moot point now anyway [/quote:28gmjvlx]

Maybe this is the reason the content about Eilistraee and Vhaeraun was cut from the book, as they wanted them back as gods and not archfeys (what the book would've done). It sucks that we'll have to wait two years to see if that's true...

[galadhion]

Hello everyone! I'm Eric Menge, the secondary author for Menzoberranzan with Brian James. My apologies for not posting earlier, but I didn't have anything I was able to share until the book was published. No that it had, I hope you will take a look at it. The art is incredible and there are many great bits in the book including a Worth system which could be used to track how drow fall out of favor of Lolth and into favor of Eilistraee.

I was in charge of the Eilistraee portion of the book. I asked (begged might be a more accurate term) for that section, because I love the Dark Maiden and wanted her to have a prominent role in the book, since she has had such a prominent presence in the Forgotten Realms. As Brian said on the Candlekeep forum, the section that addressed Eilistraee and Vhaeraun heading into the future did not make the final cut. We worked very hard on it and fought as hard as we could to include it. Ultimately, the decision lay with the editors.

Since I'm not privy to WotC's future plans, it may be because they are bringing all the gods back through the Sundering. In addition, WotC is freeing the Forgotten Realms temporally. They will be supporting products in a variety of time periods. In most of those time periods, Eilistraee will still be alive and a power in the Realms, so you may see new lore that way.

While I cannot share the text of what I submitted to WotC, Irennan is pretty much spot on in our idea of how to keep consistent with the old lore while returning Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. The Masked Lady sacrificed her divinity and returned as an archfey -- actually two archfey. Vhaeraun and Eilistraee lost their names in the sacrifice and only had their ancestral titles of the Mask on the Moon and the Dancing Maiden. While the archfey cannot grant spells, PCs would directly interact with the spirits that were Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. They ruled from the Grotto of SIlver and Shadow (the map was included in the map pack), which has fallen into ruin in the centuries that they were gods. So drow servants of the Lord and Lady have two great tasks -- fight the oppression of Lolth while reclaiming a feydark realm from the wilderness and evil fey such as the fomorians. This gives judges two great campaigns - one based entirely in the feydark and dealing with other fey and one in the Underdark continuing the fight against Lolth and her minions.

While the archfey cannot grant spells, followers of the archfey would directly interact with the spirits that were once Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Their followers would be far fewer than before, making every PC who serves the Lady and the Lord that much more important. Also, servants of Lolth are searching for the hidden Grotto and hunting the Lady and the Lord's followers constantly. Being a servant of the archfey would be a harrowing experience of a rebel, fighting overwhelming odds.

I second Brian's recommendation to let WotC know that you want Eilistraee content.If another people ask for it, they may publish the cut content as a DDI article. I still have all the text and could put it together into DDI format inside of a week.

I wrote up many of the art orders. The drow in the white dress is a follower of the Dancing Maiden. Brian and I do care about your little corner of the fanbase. Always have; always will.

Eric

[Irennan]

Thanks for the efforts you put in trying to get them back in canon, and thanks for caring about our corner of the fanbase. It is really appreciated, as the new Realms should be inclusive and shouldn't deprive [i:2fuzp42p]many[/i:2fuzp42p] people of what they like, especially when it adds so much to the setting. I like what you did there, even tho the fact that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were archfeys from the start and became gods only successively leaves me kind of perplex (as if they set up in the feywild after the exile from Arvandor, then it would be weird of two hostile beings to live in the same place. Unless the conflict between the two of them was overplayed and they were kind of allies from the beginning, the hatred of Vhaeraun towards his sister being only a myth. Then maybe, after they got their godhood their paths started diverging, as their ideals did, only to converge again in time of need giving birth to the ML, who sacrificed their combined divine power for the redemption, making brother and sister allied archfeys again -which could be given back their power, if the sundering will bring them back. So now that I think about it, WotC didn't cut the content because of the Sundering, as it could easily work with this new RSE...).

Honestly I really can't understand their decision, your approach would have left the drow true to their ''evulz'' and brainwashed roots, while adding a lot of depth and possibility of storytelling with E. and V. and their inspiring fight for drow freedom. Have they explained the reasons of their choice, at least. Was it a matter of page count, or was it like ''hey, we don't like E. and V., so we don't care if many people want them to be back''?

About the new edition neutral material: if their idea of drow is GH clone, they won't support the two siblings beyond already existing lore, and even if more story were told about them, their development would be heavily limited by the pointless and brutal conclusion that canon establishes for their story in the published setting. So, it's a moot point here, the Masked Lord and the Dancing Maiden wouldn't be able to actually achieve anything to further their cause in the official FR, if canon stands as it is now. If their idea of drow isn't GH clone, then they will eventually bring the siblings back. Either way, as I see it, former era material about them is improbable.


Anyway, I sent WotC an e-mail with my thoughts about why Eilistraee and Vhaeraun and what they stand for are meaningful addition to the drow, enriching and characterizing their corner of the Realms, and explaining (with as much kindness as I could) that a lot of fans would be happy to see them in action again, even without the power they had before, without influencing the drow as they did (so that the -boring, IMO- idea of dark elves as Lolth's pawns would still hold true). I hope that the ''official'' people who read it (assuming that they even bother to read it) won't just trash it, but at least consider the proposal of putting the content in a DDI article (and regarding this, I'm glad to hear that you're ready to put the material in DDI format within a week).

And to be honest, if they keep ignoring E. and V., I won't buy anything from them anymore (like I'm doing atm, even if they publish the pinnacle of FR products: I've already got plenty of material to play in the previous era, if I could do so. The problem isn't game-related, but is about the setting itself), because to trash two such popular and flavorful characters for no apparent reason is just wasteful (not to mention that it could happen again with other characters...).

[Aylstra Illianniis]

Given what Eric has said (and YES, they ARE suppoerting multiple eras- that was explicitly stated during the D&D keynote address at Gen-Con, which I watched), and the various other bits that have come out in the last week or two, it sounds like WotC has begun to rethink its decision on axing the pair, and even is the material on them didn't make the cut, that doesn't mean they won't still use it. It may well be in a later book. As I understand it, they are focusing on EACH setting seperately, one at a time. FR will still be its own distinct setting from GH, though they are making (from what was said at the address) the "basic" D&D all-encompasing, so that any module or adventure or D&D sourcebook can be used for any setting. (ie- White Plume, for instance, would exist in every setting at the same time, via passage through the Shadowfel, or something to that effect.) They are, as they have said, attempting to give the game- and by extension, the settings- back to the players and the fans. And with Ed back in the "driver's seat", as it were, on FR, I suspect we will indeed see more lore on these two in the future. Pewrhaps not in the same way we have previously, but considering that both he and Salvatore (you know, that guy who made the drow so popular in the first place?) are both heavily involved on projects for the "New" Realms, I'd say it's almost a given. Maybve I'm being overly optimistic, but I think WotC realizes they made a mistake in getting rid of so many gods, and are trying to fix it in a way that will makes sense without ret-conning themselves into a plot-hole..... (Give them a break- after all, they're not ret-con masters like Marvel or DC- they haven't had the practice...)

[Irennan]

Whether WotC will use the material or not depends on the reason why they cut it. If it is page count/space limit and priority, then they will likely publish the material (probably through DDI). If it is design choice (you know, like: ''A drow who thinks freely? And he/she is [i:168oy0q3]good[/i:168oy0q3]? Everyone know only Drizzt can...'' i.e. GH clone, except for the Drizzt part), then we can only hope that Ed and the others do something to bring Eilistraee and Vhaeraun back.

I know they are supporting multiple eras, but in E. and V. case this won't work. They are all about the fight for drow freedom, to give them the possibility to live by their choices and not by what Lolth decides for them, and this fight ended in the canonical Realms, in an unfitting and wasteful way. More stories about them set in the 13xx will feel off (at least to me), not capable of achieving anything actually relevant for their cause. The only solution is bringing them and what they stand for back, not as powerful or prominent as before (as their charm is also in being underdogs struggling against overwhelming odds), but back in action (hopefully not in an anonymous way, in a big group together with all other gods, but by something that fits them. And what was supposed to be in the Menzo book sounds totally good at this).

[Irennan]

[url=http://erikscottdebie.com/2012/08/21/ca ... /:24xy1s10]This[/url:24xy1s10] summarizes what's coming with the Sundering.

Specifically, about Gods:

[quote:24xy1s10]

[...]

When the Elves carried out their Sundering thousands of years ago, it frayed time in both directions and allowed some fortunate (or cursed few) to glimpse the past and present of Realmspace. One of the mages who witnessed the event had a vision of two other Sunderings, massive in scope and far mightier than what the Elves accomplished. One stretched far into the past, while another waited in the future.

Far back in ancient history, the creator races of Faerun were engaged in great battle that threatened to destroy all of Abeir-Toril. Powerful creatures called Primordials rose, each attempting to conquer the fledgling world for themselves, and the gods met their challenge. The battle became so fierce and the consequences so destructive that it got to the point that the Primordial Asgoroth the World Shaper threw an ice moon at the world, claiming that if he could not rule it, then no one could. This cataclysm (known as the Tearfall) caused massive damage to Abeir-Toril and is recorded in history to this day.

At this point, AO stepped in and worked a great Sundering, the first of its kind. He twinned the world and split it into two: Abeir for the Primordials, and Toril for the gods. Each world would hold onto the vestigial name of the other, but it was primarily a point of sagely academic research. Part of this Sundering was the creation of the Tablets of Fate, wherein AO inscribed divine reality as it existed in both worlds: in Toril, the tablets list the names and purposes of the Gods in Toril as well as the Primordials in Abeir.

For all intents and purposes, the worlds were separate, and allowed to evolve on their own. Under the aegis of the Gods, Toril saw the fall of the batrachi and the sarrukh, the rise and fall of the dragons, elves, Netherese, and finally the spread of human and demihuman kingdoms. Abeir saw a far more chaotic history involving unpredictable elemental magic, rule by the powerful and destructive Primordials, and the emergence of potent races of beings such as the genasi and dragonborn. These creatures existed in limited quantities in Toril (the consequence of planar travel or the occasional cross of genies and dragons respectively with humans), but in Abeir they flourished and built kingdoms all their own.

Then came to pass an event in Toril known alternately as the Avatar Crisis, Godswar, or the Time of Troubles. Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul (three of the younger gods who had not ascended when AO sundered the worlds) stole the Tablets of Fate, thinking them key to great power, perhaps even control over the Overgod himself. Their schemes were eventually thwarted, all three slain, and the Tablets returned to AO. The Overgod decreed that the Tablets clearly meant nothing to the gods, and so he destroyed them and left the deities to their own devices in the chaos that would soon ensue. This began the unraveling of AO’s great Sundering through the time called the Era of Upheaval.

This era (lasting from 1357 through 1486) was marked by extreme turbulence, from the invasion of the Great Kahan to the fall of Cormyr’s King Azoun IV, from the rise of Cyric and the rebirth of Bane to the silence and empowerment of Lolth, to the Rage of Dragons and the Reclamation of Myth Drannor, and finally to the death and merging of gods and the unraveling of the Weave of Magic. This last event touched off a great mystical curse upon the world called the Spellplague, which would reshape the world. The Sundering fell apart with the Weave, and pieces of Abeir merged with pieces of Toril and vice versa. The world was truly in peril and in need of great heroes to save it.

Then, as the 15th century came to a close, the third and final Sundering envisioned by the elven prophet so many years ago would come to pass. AO would once again forge the Tablets of Fate, inscribing the names and purposes of the gods he chose to serve in a new, inclusive divine reality, free of the petty schemes of unchecked gods. The worlds Abeir and Toril would be split from one another once more, though both would carry echoes and marks of the experience. Many of the gods lost to the ravages of time would return, reawakened to fulfill their inscribed purpose. AO would end the Era of Upheaval and reforge Toril as it had existed before the series of cataclysms brought on by the actions of the Gods. A new world, true to the old and moving ever forward, would dawn, and heroes would once more be called to prevent such a cataclysm from occurring ever again.

[...]

After the Sundering, Gods are coming back. Which ones? Whichever ones you want. Some of them. All of them.

The Gods are going to take on a much less surface role in FR Next. They will recede into the background, continuing to grant spells but interfering far less in the affairs of mortals. At that point, who’s to say if you’re getting spells from Helm or Torm or Tyr? You might be praying specifically to Helm, but one of the other gods receives your devotion and grants you the spells. It’s up to your DM what gods are actually there, however powerful they are, and what they do.

This is not to suggest churches aren’t going to be significant, because they are. The people who serve the gods are just as prevalent and effective as ever, and there might be hundreds of cults to deities you have never heard of in your game. Such deities may exist or not, and it’s not particularly relevant whether they do. The focus falls upon the mortals—their schemes, actions, and choices. That’s where we get the morally significant stories.
[/quote:24xy1s10]

So, whether some deity exists or not won't be decided by canon anymore, allowing novels and stories about followers of previously lost deities to be published again (this should include Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, I guess. But It'd make me happy to see that cut content about them published, as it seems to be something that really fits them...).

[Aylstra Illianniis]

Annnnd we've come full-circle, it seems. This is basically what I've been saying already, except in "official" canon format. I've already seen or heard much of this, and it is part of what makes me hopeful of the future, especially with Ed at the helm (it's HIS baby, after all!), along with the involvement of many others who want to see them back as much as we do. With the re-forging of the Tablets, it is quite possible that she and her brother will return, their names having been re-inscribed on them to return Lolth's foil(s) in claiming the hearts and souls of the drow. (And for the record, Drizzt is NOT the only one who can be a free-thinker; never has been. Liriel, Jarlaxle, Zaknafein, and especially Quilue herself as well- and those are just the MAIN ones I can name from the novels. There are many others as well.)

I'll just say that WotC seems to understand that they made some mistakes in the past edition, and instead of sweeping it under the rug as they have done before, they are admitting that it was a mistake, and are attempting to fix it. THAT, to me says volumes about the new direction and the people involved in steering it.

[Irennan]

[quote:5munzvag] (And for the record, Drizzt is NOT the only one who can be a free-thinker; never has been. Liriel, Jarlaxle, Zaknafein, and especially Quilue herself as well- and those are just the MAIN ones I can name from the novels. There are many others as well.)[/quote:5munzvag]

That was my point (the only Drizzt can was supposed to be WotC's point).

Anyway -lets face it- ''Ao casts his magic and gods are back'' is cheap (even tho I could live with it, if it brought Eilistraee and Vhaeraun back in canon), what was going to be published in the Menzo book is way cooler and more flavorful. As WotC's willingness to admit their error speaks volumes, so do their (very recent) actions. I can't be hopeful, but hope dies last.

[Shir'le E. Illios]

[quote="galadhion":ayt9m4ec]Hello everyone! I'm Eric Menge, ...[/quote:ayt9m4ec]

Hello Eric,

Thank you for fighting the good fight for us, for doing your best to bring Eilistraee back. That really is very much appreciated.

Though I admittedly don't know much about archfey or, well, anything "fey" what you described does indeed sound like it would have been very fitting. It sounds like that would have been an interesting situation to play. A "harrowing experience of a rebel, fighting overwhelming odds" has always been one of the main things attractive about Eilistraee.

Well, that and dancing naked in the moonlight.

Either way, thank you for trying. Hopefully we'll see the text released some day, as an optional thing at least. As a DDI article would work very well.


[quote="Irennan":ayt9m4ec][url=http://erikscottdebie.com/2012/08/21/ca ... /:ayt9m4ec]This[/url:ayt9m4ec] summarizes what's coming with the Sundering.[/quote:ayt9m4ec]
That is quite interesting. Hopefully [i:ayt9m4ec]that[/i:ayt9m4ec] will bring Eilistraee back then.

I agree with you though that Ao intervening is a bit of a cop-out solution. It's the divine equivalent of "magic did it". Personally I still feel that they've worked themselves into such a bind that the only thing that could save it is a true, real, re-boot wiping the entire slate clean and starting fresh. But I don't expect them to do that.

As is I'll take what I can get.

I like that the deities are going to be much more in the background, though I wonder how well they'll be able to keep it up. After all, people like the deities, some people like fighting them, interacting directly with them, changing things. With novels published about heroes directly interacting with the gods it is going to be hard to convince people to keep them in the background. But I think it is better for the heroes to be center-stage and using the deities more as flavor.

As such I also like that you can't ever be truly certain which deity is granting you spells. In that light alone Eilistraee could be 'back' if some other deity decides to grant spells to her followers. I can see Corellon Larethian, Sehanine Moonbow or even Selûne doing so (and a few others as well). That would mean that for her followers nothing would (have to) change. It would even make sense for there to remain secs such as those worshipping the Masked Lady [i:ayt9m4ec]and[/i:ayt9m4ec] Eric's article regarding turning her and Vhaeraun into archfey would still work too (giving it an interesting twist where some of the Dancing Maiden's followers might also worship 'Eilistraee').

Anyway, as always we'll have to see how things turn out. But that bit you quoted does seem positive to me. I very much like it if the deities are a little less defined.


Love -x-x-x-

Shir'le

[Irennan]

^ Provided that it doesn't become a trick to keep people silent by telling them: ''hey look! Your god might or not be back, but we won't support it anyway!'' (which would just be badwrong), it'll be fine to me (what I mean is that even if they say X can be back, having stories about X's followers and quest set in the new era is what matters, what says that X is somehow alive in the ''shiny'' new context. Otherwise, I can use any deity in any game without WotC permission...).

---

Archfey are beings of power comparable to demigods who inhabit the feywild (a sort of projection of the material plane, but brighter). Each of them represents some concepts, much like a god, but they can't grant spell. However they can indeed have followers. This solution would've worked just fine to bring Eilistraee and Vhaeraun back in canon. It would've been respectful and fitting for their characters, and -as you said- would've been perfectly compatible with the Sundering. Besides, by being just Archfeys, they would have been too weak -and their followers too few- to even start opposing Lolth, staying true to WotC's will to have the drow be ''kewl and evulz'', but still keeping the struggle for freedom alive. It was the perfect opportunity to restore them and make many people happy. One they wasted. I only hope that they realize this and release the cut content...

[Aylstra Illianniis]

Y'know, it has occured to me that there is something being overlooked here- the "Rise of the Underdark" RSE(?) "event" that is still in the works as well. I understand that the hoopla over the Sundering has caught everyone's attention, but in the meantime, we don't know how or if the two will play any part in the ascention of the drow coming up. The Menzo book doesn't seem to cover that, and I've heard/seen very little else other than the map-pack and puzzle/trivia-game it was made for. Perhaps that is where we will see them return? Or- barring that- we may see that content used as part of that event, perhaps via DDi. I for one would not be adverse to that.

Other than that, it seems there are mixed messages here. One the one hand, we have not one but SEVERAL assertions that they WILL be coming back (without any details on how, why, in what from, or when) and on the other hand, we have had no definite info, and some pulled content. (Which I'm not as worried about, as it could have been for any number of reasons for that decision- and I sincerely doubt it was simply to "make them evuls and kewl", as we have already seen that a one-note race is anythinbg BUT "kewl". See orcs, gnolls, giants, and any of a dozen other races with very little flavor or development.)

[Irennan]

RotU is Lolth crafting yet another awesome infallible scheme to get her own Weave, wrap Faerun in darkness (literally), and become the new Mystra. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun don't seem to be related to this (and if they were, why would've they cut the content about them from the book, despite authors insisting and bringing forth very valid reasons for them to be back?).

---

We only have something that says that all gods can be back in the new Realms (WotC won't specify who's back and who isn't), it's up to the DM (like if people couldn't realize this alone). There is nothing to grant that the siblings and their followers and their struggle will be still alive and supported in novels, stories or sourcebooks in the new era (unless you know details that I'm not aware of), even tho there's willingness to write about them among some authors. On the other hand, debating on CK, I've read assertions about how WotC want the drow to stay true to their original evilness and complete submission to Lolth, so that they can be more ''mysterious'' (and this makes me laugh, as they've just published yet another drow sourcebook, all the new ''encounters'' are dark elves-based, the drow are now going to be even more prominent, and there is so much info about them that dwarves and some [i:2nxga67p]human[/i:2nxga67p] populations are far more mysterious). While the future of the Realms may looks shiny at this point, that of the realmsian drow seems to be ugly. Obviously I can -and hope- to be totally wrong, and then I'll eat back all my words about this.

That said, my hope is that they realize that -as you pointed out- ''kewl and evulz'' races are not only boring, but plain stupid. After reading WotSQ (my first novels about the dark elves) -honestly- I won't bother with any lolthite drow book. Their mentality caught my interest at the beginning, because it was new and weird, but it gets tiresome quickly. I mean, how can people who are brainwashed with idiotic dogma to the point of not having any real control on their life (this is a huge minus), of believing that individuals have no intrinsic value -except how much they dominate-, and of deeming even happiness weak (they look like a bunch of frustrated people) be charismatic villains? The drow fail at their own purpose as race, as they were at their origins (and are again now). They inspire me hilarity, pity and perplexity, rather than fear or hate. All their big viallainous acts aren't out of their own volition, but out of divine mandate, just like the fact that their pointless society has paradoxically survived the passing of so many centuries depends on Lolth's control (seriously, this is just cheap. It's like ''magic did it'', but with the difference that it makes the drow even more weak willed and spineless, totally dependent on the divine control of their actions, incapable of thinking and acting coherently with [i:2nxga67p]their[/i:2nxga67p] ideas, evil or not. And in this regard, this is why I [i:2nxga67p]hated[/i:2nxga67p] that sava game BS, as it made this thing even more prominent, even among Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites, who are supposed to be free. We're in the 21st century, I thought that concepts that resemble ''providence'' were surpassed at this point, characters lose strength (in my eyes at least) because of it...).

Lolthite drow simply combine the most annoying traits ever known to mankind (yes: annoying, not villainous): blind religious zealotry, sexism, racism, extremely rigid caste system, incapability of independent thought, absence of any real motivation for their actions beyond boosting their ego (just like Lolth) and ''Lolth commands so'' , standardized behavior (which trumps even personality differences) and ultimate goal in life due to extremely close mentality. They don't make for interesting villains, but for [i:2nxga67p]monsters[/i:2nxga67p] to be slaughtered, and this was Gygax's original purpose in designing them (AFAIK). And things that have been said at CK make me think that this is where WotC want to bring them: to their roots, but GH roots, not [i:2nxga67p]FR[/i:2nxga67p] roots (which would totally include bringing Eilistraee and Vhaeraun back to canon, since they are the main characterizing mark of realmsian dark elves, who are [i:2nxga67p]people[/i:2nxga67p], not just monsters), not realizing that if someone wanted to have drow as monsters, he/she could easily do so in his/her campaign (''the FR are yours to shape'' slogan is also true in the sense that you can ignore options, not only that you can make them up), but that setting-wise monsters drow offer very little opportunity of telling stories which are not about the stereotypical ''dagger in the back'', or about frustrated (and not rarely hysterical) people whose only purpose is pleasing Lolth and having everyone bow at their feet, while E. and V. could easily remedy to this.

I only hope that they understand that brother and sister can make this race way more interesting and mysterious (and that if WotC want to bring FR to their origins, the two of them [i:2nxga67p]have[/i:2nxga67p] to come back), and even [i:2nxga67p]more[/i:2nxga67p] villainous (because then they would have a choice, and indoctrination would not be the only reason for drow to be Lolth's servants and be evil), besides adding tons of storytelling opportunity and being awesome characters on their own. They represent meaningful and inspiring concepts in a cool and valid way, independently from the fact that they are related to the drow. If I had to write a campaign, I would include the siblings even if drow weren't involved in the story, maybe as mortal characters -humans, elves or whatever- who bring their struggle in their own little corner of the world.

WotC should also consider that there are truly [i:2nxga67p]a lot[/i:2nxga67p] of people who want them back, or that would be totally fine with the siblings coming back. They just have to look around: nearly everyone would be glad to see them coming back. And I mean not like: ''you know Ao might have written their names on his/her/its notepad, so if you wish, they are back''. Realms-wise (in game this works, but then I would just ignore LP) this is weak, sucks and doesn't change [i:2nxga67p]anything[/i:2nxga67p]. They need to play a role in the new era, continuing their quest for freedom, no matter what the odds are. And this needs novels and stories about their followers.

They [i:2nxga67p]totally[/i:2nxga67p] deserve their own place in the shiny new era. As hope will rise again after the Sundering, I can't see any better time for them to be back, gifting it to the drow -as archfey, like they were supposed to become, or deities-.

[galadhion]

When we were designing Menzoberranzan, Brian and I thought of Lolth as the ultimate mean girl. Her favor was all important, and she is notoriously fickle as to who gets it. She purposefully toys with her followers, encouraging some while ruining others, just to keep her followers off balance and desperate for her favor. The different drow houses are a lot like high school cliques with Lolth as the alpha and all her high priestesses are betas. So while the drow are evil, they are not automatons. They are all seeking approval from a queen bee who will never give them what they want. No matter how much they give to her, they will never get the acceptance and approval that they crave. It's kinda sad really. And into this dysfunctional society was Eilistraee - or her inheritor the Dancing Maiden. She would offer the drow what they truly wanted - love, approval, and acceptance. Most of the drow would deny that they want any part of it, naturally.

At least that was some of our thinking behind the book.

[Irennan]

The only thing that prevents the drow from being automatons consists of (natural) personality differences. But look at them: they aren't ''evil'' because they wish (well some of them truly do, but it's something that happens among all races), but because they were indoctrinated starting from their childhood, they were simply told to do so. As you said, they behave as they do to please Lolth, following her dogma as it was absolute truth, and in doing so they inevitably face frustration, as their choices don't matter: they can't be happy (which is what every being, even villains ultimately seeks. The ones who don't clearly have no consideration of themselves, no personal value, acting only to further other people's interests -[i:1aqpczi0]slaves[/i:1aqpczi0]-, not physically, but mentally) because they cannot make choices that fulfill themselves (actually most of them don't have any sort of real control on their life), and because happiness is something weak in Lolth's eyes (and if we want, their cruelty can be the outcome of this frustration and utter oppression), and is therefor deemed weak among drow as well (because if someone was happy, then he/she would be satisfied with what has and it would obviously be something to squirm at in disgust, because one can't be pleased until all and everyone is at his/her feet. Doing otherwise would mean weakness and consequently worthlessness).

Besides, every drow, even the ones oppose the matriarchy, have the same goal in life: power, dominating other people for the sake of it, because they were told that it is the right way to live and now are convinced that it is true, not because they actually choose it or seek happiness (as I said, what every being seeks in its life) through it. And everything they do is devoted to that meaningless goal imposed by their goddess, so that they could be her perfect tool of revenge, with no intrinsic value as individuals (something that they are aware of and are brainwashed to the point of believing that it is actually right, that how much power one has is the only measure of its worth -this is somewhere in DotU 3.5), throwing their lives away to please her and often coming near the point of annihilation, only to have their goddess intervening to keep them tied to her leash (we could even compare this process to animal breeding, to an extent...).

At the end of the day my point is that monsters drow act and live mainly out of divine mandates and dogma that filled their mind during their childhood, not out of their own volition. They are pawns, oppressed, living in disgusting conditions: they as a race don't forge their future, but rather depend on their goddess for it, like an infant with the worst mother ever. All in all, they're not movers and not charismatic villains, lacking any meaningful motivation for their action beyond ''for Lolth'' or power for its sake. As I said, they inspire me hilarity and pity rather than fear. As you said, it is sad, not villainous. This drama has potential, undeniably, it is a cool concept (I'm glad that the book was designed keeping this in mind; the Dancing Maiden and the Masked Lord would've fit perfectly, it is incomplete without them. Drow are not like -say- the Dark Eldar from WH40k, [i:1aqpczi0]among them[/i:1aqpczi0] the two siblings and what they represent would be out of place, but they definitely fit, enrich, [i:1aqpczi0]complete and characterize[/i:1aqpczi0] the realmsian drow. What the editors decided is truly a shame, a waste...), and it is what drew my attention towards the dark elves (with Eilistraee being its symbol); the monsters that WotC apparently want them to be don't have that, they flat out suck because they add [i:1aqpczi0]nothing[/i:1aqpczi0] to the setting and [i:1aqpczi0]they're NOT true to the FR[/i:1aqpczi0] (besides, Wizards should realize that for game purpose DMs can easily choose to ignore this matter and have drow as monsters, but Realms-wise fans don't have as much choice, and wasting characters and stories -especially when they are so popular and valid- is just badwrong design). This is one more strong reason why the dark elves [i:1aqpczi0]need[/i:1aqpczi0] Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, as they are needed to play their contrasting nature out in its potential. They represent the ones who dare to stand up and live by and fight for their own choices and freedom, that refuse to be brainwashed by idiotic dogma and that no longer want to be mere puppets in Lolth's hands. And they (well Eilistraee does), as you said, stand for a beacon of hope for a life free from hatred and oppression, where everyone is invaluable for what he/she is (and not for how much he/she serves Lolth), and is free to make his/her own choices and express the beauty that every being has, free to love and be loved, so that life can flourish.

[Aylstra Illianniis]

How far into WotSQ did you get? Cause they DO have ambitions , ideas, and goals of their own, personal wants and needs that they try to pursue. They are no more "automatons" than any given religious vealot in RL. Simply because they are indoctrinated from birth does NOT mean they have no free will. They simply have no means to implement it for the most part, and for that matter, most never even question that they SHOULD. That is the simplicity of Lolth's trap- they believe that her way is the only way because they don't KNOW any other way, and simply assume that that is how life is for everyone. They're not mindless, they're just like little kids who are easily led. They may be evil by design, but it's because they are like a kid who is punished for doing something that comes naturally, and then learns (like the dog training) not to ever do it again- in this case, seeking freedom and happiness. Beat a dog often enough, it will learn to cower automatically without even being threatend. Drow are much the same....

I don't disagree with you by any means about drow being more interesting with them around, but I do think that even WITH the deletion of that material, most of the info that has come out has been more positive. Also, I don't think they are going back to GH roots by any means- and I would certainly not think so with Ed being head of the new FR design team. He has enough influence on his own to insure that they will not become boring. If anything, I'd like to think they are going with a more "drow are the hidden threat" approach. Or, with the RotU and Menzo stuff coming out, maybe it's more of the "drow are the monster under the bed that everyone always warned you about" approach. And the monsters are coming out to play.....