Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

[Irennan]

[quote:1f1mmbgd]Don't give up hope yet, guys. I have it on good authority (some of the designers and writers are active at Candlekeep!) that there may well be some new info regarding her and Vaerhaun both. It seems that the "new" team is made up mainly of some old and familiar names, and there are several seminars, etc. dealing with FR and Candlekeep at Gen-Con next weekend. The "Rise of the Underdark" will likely be addressed, and I'm willing to bet that so will the drow deities and some of the other "mistakes" of 4th ed. I won't be going myself, unfortunately, but several other members of that site will, and they have agreed to keep us all posted about what they see, hear, etc at these meetings and such. I'll be sure to relay any info I find to all of you here![/quote:1f1mmbgd]


I find it telling that the editors (i.e. WotC) decided to cut the work of the authors about Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. It was there, the map that WotC published with their puzzle game was supposed to be part of the book, and (considering the hints we got on this forum) it obviously meant that the two deities were supposed to be brought back (almost surely as archfeys). Still, all of that was cut (or at least it looks so). I've heard about the new team at the head of the FR development, and that's good news, but to me it looks like there's someone at WotC who for some reason stubbornly wants the drow to be just a bunch of people brainwashed with a ''mwahaha!! For powah and teh evulz!1!!1'' meaningless and pointless dogma, even if this is the worst and most boring kind of villains, and even tho it is clear that many people wish the drow to be more than that (and this not even considering that E. and V. would add good flavor and neat and inspiring concepts to the setting). I want to be optimistic about this, but it's just hard at this point...

[Shir'le E. Illios]

I've pretty much got a "we'll wait and see" attitude about the whole thing. If they do include something in the new book then great, perhaps I'll even start buying WotC products again. And if not then that would be deeply regrettable, but we'll just continue on without WotC. I mean if there's one thing that the whole 4E debacle has taught me then it's that we (as in "the players") don't [i:2thbeewh]need[/i:2thbeewh] WotC. At least not nearly as much as they need us.

The question is not whether Eilistraee will live on, the question is whether WotC will.


Love -x-x-x-

Shir'le

[Irennan]

[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":d4g1we3w]
The question is not whether Eilistraee will live on, the question is whether WotC will.[/quote:d4g1we3w]

Indeed. However, I'd say D&D itself more than WotC (and this is sad), since even in the worst case (i.e. 5e flopped), they'd still have their card game, which is their main money mine.

[Aylstra Illianniis]

To be honest, I've seen no indication that any of that content has been- or will be- cut. If it had, I'm sure there would be something about it over there on CK, and so far, not a whsiper of anything being cut from the book. There's been plenty of speculation (some even involving authros and designers themsleves) about what the actual content will be, but It seems to be pretty much set at this point. I suspect that the section in question is being kept hush-hush to avoid too much fan-boiism. Keep in mind, that sample chapters are usually drawn from around the middle of a sourcebook, to generate interst. That's how the've done it in the past, and I see no reason why they would change that now.

[Irennan]

WotC didn't upload actual excerpts of the book, they gave people the table of contents of each chapter in it (and they've covered the whole sourcebook, according to the meager page count of 128 on Amazon). And nothing that could even remotely hint in any way about Eilistraee or Vhaeraun, or the FeyDark can be found among such contents. The fact that WotC ''published'' a sneaky preview of something that was obviously about them during June, and that now it isn't anywhere in any of the chapters tells me that the such material was removed by the editors.

That said, I generally try to stay calm and wait for the facts before saying anything, but when I get warmed up about something I can be very impulsive in judging the situation (a couple weeks ago I was hyped about this Menzo book, lol), so my thoughts about this could very well be wrong. And I [i:33e254ow]really[/i:33e254ow] hope to be wrong and eat my words about WotC back, but at this point it seems to me that Eilistraee, Vhaeraun and the few free drow and what they stand for are going to fade away from the [i:33e254ow]canonical[/i:33e254ow] FR (never from ours, ofc) for a very long time (despite their popularity), just like it happened to Leira, or Bhaal, or others. Whatever pleases almighty Wizbros, I guess. It's money that they are losing.

[Aylstra Illianniis]

They seem to be going in a different direction this time- mainly more like old-school 2nd ed, from what I've seen so far. If you're referring to the map of the "Cavern of Songs and Shadows", it was part of a puzzle game they were doing, and so far it DOES appear to be part of the actual content of the book (at least there's been no indication that it was removed at any point). A teaser, to be sure, but I (and several toehrs active on CK) have had hints from a couple of the writers that there will be some "pleasant" surprises regarding that material when the book comes out. I'm optimistic based on that. They have no reason to lie, and a simple table of contents tells very little about the actual content of the book itself- just an overview of basic info covered. That's what it's for. I've perused the D&D section of WotC several times recently- even downloaded the new playtest pack, which looks good so far- and seen little to indicate what, exactly, will be in the book. We'll know more on Thursday, once the Gen-Con info comes out. Ed and several otehrs are going to be announcing some of the new ideas and events for FR, so.... I'm cautiously excited.

[Irennan]

Yeah, I know, I read CK too, and we have hints from one of the authors in this very thread. However freelancers only have so much pull and info on official decisions, and the pages uploaded by WotC look exhaustive to me (as I think that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun deserve at least their own section -a small one maybe, but their own-.This doesn't appear in any of the sections that form the various chapters), and I don't see any reason for them to [i:23xf85h1]not[/i:23xf85h1] preview such popular deities' return, as creating hype over their product would surely help (btw, I really don't understand WotC aura of secrecy that surrounds even the most insignificant matters. It would be reasonable when it comes to big projects, but when it is related to bits of lore it is just stupid and irritating for fans and customers). However you're right to say that we should wait for the book to come out or for some official announcement, even though -to me- this is more a case of ''hope dies last'', rather than something to really hope for...

EDIT: Alas, some people who got the book from a FLGS confirmed my thoughts, on the WotC forum (and CK too). What a waste... So, Eilistraee and Vhearaun won't be in the canonical Realms anymore, unless they make some shocking announcement at the GenCon, or unless the ''familiar'' people in the new FR team manage to talk WotC official guys into restoring them, or whatever. But I highly doubt this.

[Aylstra Illianniis]

Well, the Menzo book isn't the be-all and end-all of their Underdark lore, either. As I understand it, it's just PART of what they have in store. the "Rise of the Underdark" "event" seems to have a pretty big impact on FR, and I honestly can't see them doing that without at least SOME mention of the others. Could you give links to what you're talking about? I haven't found anything discussing the chapters at all. Is this "subscriber only" content? Cause the maps gave at least some hint that the pair- or at least one of them- might still be around in some form. Please do share what you've found. After traipsing all over the site, I only came across a couple of articles on driders, a small bit on "fringe groups" (like Ghaunadaur-worshippers, so it appears HE is at least still around), and a couple of module-related pieces. but most of it was DDI content that required a subscription to actually read. I don't have one, so I could only guess at the content. But nothing I saw seemed to scream "WotC yanked everyone's chain with false hopes!"

As for the secrecy, it is of course to build curiosity and hype for their next big launch, including small bits of lore that one would have to BUY the products to find out about. That's just marketing technique. Every company does it in one form or another.

[Irennan]

The chapters are covered in the [url=http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Archive.aspx ... s:117vzj4z]first 6 excerpts[/url:117vzj4z] in the linked page. Someone who managed to get the book in some ''premium store'' (actually I'm not sure whether to trust him or not, but he'd have no reason to lie, and seems to actually own the book) spoiled things [url=http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... 3:117vzj4z]here[/url:117vzj4z] (err... don't mind the little prank he makes).

[quote="Aylstra Illianniis":117vzj4z][...] the "Rise of the Underdark" "event" seems to have a pretty big impact on FR, and I honestly can't see them doing that without at least SOME mention of the others. [...] Cause the maps gave at least some hint that the pair- or at least one of them- might still be around in some form.[/quote:117vzj4z]

Oh, I totally [i:117vzj4z]can[/i:117vzj4z] see them not even mentioning Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. If you consider the hints by some insiders that have been floating around since the end of the last year and then take a look at the map of the ''grotto of silver and shadow'' (which has been cut from the book, with the related lore), it'll become pretty clear that the early (and not so much, since the map appeared to be still part of the book in June) intention was to bring both E. and V. back in canon as Archfeys (the map is pretty much a corner of the Feywild Underdark dedicated to the two of them), not hostile to each other anymore. The fact that the editors removed this idea tells me a lot about their take on the drow: they just want them to be the standard trivial bad guys, with no depth or real motivation, mostly incapable of acting outside divine command, to make their own choices. It doesn't seem to me that they care about the fact that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are very well received characters, who bring much depth and flavor to the FR (and their will to make the drow fit such boring idea of race makes me believe that even development for E's and V's story in a multiple era approach would be highly unlikely. Not that it'd matter, as no real development would be possible in canon, given the limit that it imposes to the writers atm...).

As I said in my other post, my only ''hope'' at this point is that the trusted names in the new team can bring the two of them back in canon...

PS: Ghaunadaur is still kicking in the canonical Realms, he has even become a greater deity AFAIK (and with all the slimy Cthulhu thingy that was going on at the start of 4e it couldn't be otherwise...)

[Aylstra Illianniis]

My question to you is: Did you read through the excerpts? Cause just from the one on drow factions alone, I'm seeing hints that they ARE present. The artwork on that page alone is telling- a drow female in a WHITE gown being threatened by a bunch of Lolthites, and mentions in the text of both Ghaunadaur AND Vaerhaun! It even states that it can be uesed to start a campaign set in ANY time perieod- which means there almost HAS to be info about the other deities.

[Aylstra Illianniis]

I will note that several of the downloads did not work, and the info in the two that DID was very scetchy, at best. Just a single page of "overview", NOT a table of contents..... Not enough info there to determine one way or another what IS or IS NOT in the book- and I'd take what someone claiming to have bought it early with a grain of salt, BTW.

[Irennan]

I [i:3pp5vipr]did[/i:3pp5vipr] read through the excerpts: why would I vent my disappointment over nothing? About the section related to the drow factions:the Jaezred Chauslinn (or whatever it is spelled) are no longer Vhaerunites (AFAIK), Ghaunadaur has been there since the start of 4e, and I had the same reaction you had when I saw the drow woman with the white dress, but in which faction could Eilistraeens be, among the ones listed (no, house Melarn has become a bunch of inquisitors and zealots -yeah even for drow standards-)? Besides the pages they uploaded list all the sections in every chapter, and to me it doesn't seem that any of them hints in any way to the [i:3pp5vipr]return[/i:3pp5vipr] of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, or to the FeyDark. About what the guy who got the book said, I do take it with caution, but what reasons would he have to lie? Anyway I realize this is just speculation, even tho I'm not hopeful for this book. All we can do is waiting for it to come out.

My only ''hope'' now is that E. and V. will be among the deities brought back by ''The Sundering'' (and according to Eric S. de Bie, who's working on it, Gods are coming back with that new RSE)...

PS: The DL worked fine when WotC uploaded the pdfs, I guess it's just a website issue.

[Shir'le E. Illios]

It is my understanding that with 5E D&D they're going much more for a "play in any era you want" approach, basically trying to support at least three different eras at once (basically 1[sup:3tj6j2pv]st[/sup:3tj6j2pv] ed pre-Time of Troubles, 2[sup:3tj6j2pv]nd[/sup:3tj6j2pv] ed/3E/3.5E post-Time of Troubles pre-Spellplague and 4E post-Spellplague). They realize that the 4E Realms really weren't that popular (and that's an understatement), but at the same time they can't abandon it either. In that sense they would support Eilistraee only because they kind of have to (because she exists in two of those three eras, though arguably not that visibly in the first one) and might rely mostly on the community for keeping existing lore in those eras alive.

You can kind of see hints of this in the description they have with each of the excerpts: "Beings such as Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur have adherents [b:3tj6j2pv]in some eras[/b:3tj6j2pv]" (emphasis mine). It feels very much like setting the stage for a multi-era D&D with 5E.

As for the image, it truly does feel like an Eilistraeen drow... but technically it could be any drow in a white dress. It is quite possible that she was supposed to represent an Eilistraeen, but if Irennan is right and the content was cut then the image could also be interpreted generally and thus still be used. Even so it might make brief mention of "other religions" or such in a section about Lolth, sort of a "they have to remain ever vigilant" or whatever.

In the end I'm finding that I'm not really caring that much anymore, having kind of given up hope with WotC actually caring about our little section of their old fanbase. It would've been really, really nice to see something new regarding Eilistraee. Something official. But in the end I think that we can probably do a much better job just ignoring whatever they do and just forging our own path, much like our goddess.


Love -x-x-x-

Shir'le

[Irennan]

Yes, I agree that we're better off forging our path, as Shir'le said (and that's what everyone has already done with FR material, ignoring what they dislike and playing as they see fit, even before people at WotC came up with the'' canon is yours to choose from'' obvious motto) but it'd ''warm my heart'' to see Eilistraee's quest keeping going on with more stories in the canonical Realms. It's not just a matter of game, but of the setting itself. And it is just stupid of WotC to not bring E. and V. back, given their evident popularity. The people who want them back are not few, at all: just check CK, or even the WotC boards (FR section and the Realms related topic on the 5E forum).

Also, even with multiple eras support,they [i:2hqf6hid]don't[/i:2hqf6hid] have to develop Eilistraee or Vhaeraun. If their idea of drow is GH clone, but with even more zealotry (if that's even possible) then they will probably give us the same old info and marginalize them, with no more stories published (not that it'd matter, since their development would be heavily limited by such a wasteful canonical ending...). Anyway I hope this is not the case (even tho facts have pointed out to the contrary, up to now. Heck, they didn't even mention the goddess anywhere, not once, despite the recent focus on FR drow, while they at least published an article including a few bits about Vhaeraun on DDI), as the lore support for multiple era seems to be only part of the plan, the other being (apparently) correcting the mistakes of 4e:

[quote:2hqf6hid]Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Official news:

No retcons, no reboots.

Gods are coming back.

The worlds are coming apart again.

The Spellplague is being solved.

Lore support for multiple eras is on the table.

Questions?[/quote:2hqf6hid]

This time I'll take a wait and see attitude too, rather than being hyped over nothing, tho...

[Irennan]

From CK:

[quote:1xm3y7gq]Originally posted by Brian R. James

unfortunately the content with Eilistraee and Vhaerun didn't make the final cut. The best way you can voice your support for the siblings would be to contact Wizards directly. who knows, if enough people show interest there a possibility that it could be released online sometime in the future.[/quote:1xm3y7gq]

So, yes the content was removed, but I'm going to try at least and send them a mail about why Eilistraee and Vhaeraun should return to canon...

EDIT: I've written a letter and passed it to the customer service. The (kind and timely, I must say) response I received was that it will be passed along to the competent team. Now I can only keep my fingers crossed for the cut content to be published as a DDI article, or something...