[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":p85u5b4p] I've spent a large part of my life looking for a way to justify it in the eyes of my skeptical peers who have in the past called me delusional for living in a fantasy world, unprovoked, I might add. Simply holding a world view other than their own is often enough to set an atheist off, as surely as any religious zealot in the reverse. [/quote:p85u5b4p]
You shouldn't need to justify your beliefs unless you want to; anyone who tells you otherwise isn't worthy of your respect. If they're like me and are simply trying to understand what you believe and why then it's different but they should still respect your beliefs.
[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":p85u5b4p] The truth of the matter is that in the face of scientific fact, the majority of humanity's faith is easily disproved by science. [/quote:p85u5b4p]
Did you know that the big bang theory was originally theorized by a Catholic Priest? Also calling it a bang is a bit of a misnomer; there was no medium for sound to travel through and where you to go back in time and view the start of the universe it would appear as a bright flash of [b:p85u5b4p][i:p85u5b4p]light[/i:p85u5b4p][/b:p85u5b4p] with absolutely no sound.
I've always embraced science and "reason" as tools of my faith, even when I was a left of mainstream Christian. Science can tell you how the universe appears to work, what it can't tell you is WHY the universe works, there is absolutely no reason for the universe to obey any laws at all, never mind the rather complex laws of Physics.
[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":p85u5b4p] This search has been a long and miserable one for me that's resurrected fears about what will happen to me when I die, and what has already become of those I have lost. I have nightmares about it and have frequent bouts with depression because of it. [/quote:p85u5b4p]
I am very sorry to hear that and I suppose I should bare that in mind when discussing religion in the future. I'm very open about my beliefs for two reasons: first I LOVE learning about other faiths and second I have a passionate love of infuriating zealots; theist and atheist alike. I've never lost any sleep over the thought of dying so it makes it hard for me to understand why people get so squirmy over the idea.
I had my mortality impressed upon me at an early age; my oldest memory is of a doctor telling my mother I'd be dead within the hour, followed shortly there after by "He has pneumonia, it's unlikely that he'll live through the week." Hearing that tends to have a profound impact on a 3 year old. It only got better from there, "He may not live to see 5" followed by "He'll need a cane by the time he's 15 and a wheel chair by the time he's 25." and most recently: "You'll likely have stomach cancer by the time you're 20."
In short: death and other unpleasent fates are old news to me, I'm 25, my stomach is fine and I went for a run this morning. Death has always been something that happens for me, it'll take me when it takes me and there isn't a damn thing I can do about it, same with everyone else. What I CAN do is laugh and smile and tell my loved ones just how much I love them while living as good a life as I can, reguardless of what comes after.
[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":p85u5b4p] My only wish is for people to be happy, I care about nothing else, and thinking about the things I have thought of in such depth brings nothing but misery. The sad, horrible reality is that there's only one way to find out. Die, and then you'll know. And if you don't, you won't know it anyway. Scary thought, one that will haunt me on a very personal level until I die. [\quote]
That's a noble sentiment and one that, from what I've seen of you, you've done a fine job of living up to. You're absolutely right, we don't know until we're dead, all we can do is live as well as we can and hope for the best. I hope you don't lose any more sleep over the thought of dying, there is nothing any of us can do about it so it's really not worth fretting over. Besides living forever sounds boring to me, I'd like 2-3 centuries but I'll take what I get.
[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":p85u5b4p] Sharing it with others creates religion, and we all know what's become of that over our history. [/quote:p85u5b4p]
Hey now I think the Buddha did a fine job of assembling the ethical ideals of his religion. How many violent Buddhists have you heard of? Buddhist crusades? Buddhist witch hunts? All religions have their wackos but Buddhism seems to have the least. True a LOT of Buddhist beliefs make me want to bash my head against a wall but thats not my point.
The best quote I've ever heard on religion is that "Faith is not what the lessons bring to the people. It's the mistake the people bring to the lessons." Every genuine faith I've ever heard of shares ideals of kindness and virtue, it's the (mis)interpretations by the people that cause problems.
[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":p85u5b4p] In parting I ask you consider the words of the Buddha, who said, "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."[/quote:p85u5b4p]
"Hold on, my common sense is tingling." - Deadpool
Common sense, so rare it's a friggen super power.
[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":p85u5b4p]
One could challenge that. Just because one believes that they exist doesn't make it so. (It could be argued that the idea that one needs to exist to be able to think and have ideas and be able to doubt is just a supposition that can't be proven.)
But I'm just pointing that out because whenever someone claims something as absolute and unchallengeable my first reaction is to challenge it.
[/quote:p85u5b4p]
True if you believe that the universe is completely subjective. However if you're a Dualist (like me) or a Materialist then you end up with a paradox because if there is nothing to answer the question then there is nothing to ask it... oh that and my entire ethical system breaks down. If their is no self then it's unlikely that their are other "people" and there is absolutely no reason why I shouldn't go on a murder spree and go out in a hail of gun fire because no one exists and it doesn't matter anyway.
There are better, more thorough refutations by much smarter people than me (Soren Kierkegaard to name one) but since some of what they go into makes MY head hurt and only makes the barest of sense to me I'll not use their points. (Never use an argument you don't fully comprehend)
[quote="Aylstra Illianniis":p85u5b4p] Just why DOES the judeo-christian god feel the need to be the ONLY one worshipped? [/quote:p85u5b4p]
Does He? Read the first commandment a little closer. "Thou shalt have no other gods [b:p85u5b4p][i:p85u5b4p]before[/i:p85u5b4p][/b:p85u5b4p] me." This can be taken to mean that worshiping other gods is fine so long as God is given president. Through the sheer about of fire in the OT and one can make a solid argument that Yahwe is infact the god of fire and the creator god, meaning that their ARE other gods, simply that Yahwe is the one that made us and that He should be given our love first.
Is any of that actually the case? I have no idea, I said before my religious beliefs begin and end with the assertion that the universe was created. I think the creator may have used religion to get the core ideals of what it wants for us to our ears and that everything else is our own influence; a good arguement for this is that when you strip away the religious trappings from Christianity what you get is Buddhism with a Hebrew accent.
[quote="Bergeth'fryn":p85u5b4p]ok, is it torch and pitchfork time then? hahaha
[/quote:p85u5b4p]
"Suffer not a witch to live!!!" (btw thats actually a mistranslation from Hebrew to Greek and means something else entirely)
The last belief I held as a "true" Christian (I DO still sort of identify as Christian in a weird sort of way) was that God is exactly what he claims to be and that the rather radical shift in mentality from the OT to the Gospels was due to the growing maturity of Humanity, like a parent with a child; before a child learns language do you ask it to put down the scissors or do you take them away while saying "no"?
As to the "Evil" of satan I've always seen it like this: If God is the loving compassionate figure God claims to be then God would forgive EVERYONE for EVERYTHING they've ever done wrong. Therefore Satan exists because HUMANITY demands it. Think of Satan as a prosecuting attorney rather than a horrible demon waiting to gnaw on your soul, Satan's job is to see to it that the people like Hitler get their just rewards.
My Pastor hated that idea because he felt I was trying to downplay the dangers of Satan but from my point of view it had the opposite effect; it makes the trials and temptations we go through all the more important because we can never say "The Devil made me do it." because you did it on your own.
[quote="Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar":p85u5b4p]hmmm, where to begin.
i dont like to classify myself as 'such' or 'such' (boxes are claustrophobic). [/quote:p85u5b4p]
I didn't put myself in a box, I tripped over it and my ideas just happened to fit into it rather nicely! lol
[quote="Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar":p85u5b4p] now i dont, wont force my beliefs, wont force one to accept. if one doesnt accept, then they have the right to that. but i do share and will try to answer questions. I do listen and enjoy hearing of others beliefs, even learning of them. [/quote:p85u5b4p]
I was under the impression that was the whole point of this thread.
[quote="Zarae Zyne Kilanatlar":p85u5b4p] One thing that really urks me. i should know, the settlers came over to America and tried to make my people become white....[/quote:p85u5b4p][/quote:p85u5b4p]
My only ancestors who west of the Appalachian mountains prior to the massacre at Wounded Knee were Lakota (Great great great grandmother), my Direct paternal ancestors were too busy being starved to death in a nation where the hardest hit areas were still producing enough food to feed themselves twice over to oppress anyone and my maternal ancestors only left Germany because Hitler came to power; we're fairly certain my great grandmother was Jewish, that or they were smart enough to know that the s was about to hit the f and left.
I'd love to hear more about your belief, such as why you use the terms you use like xian for christian. I'm guessing from the Greek abbreviation for christos which was PX bit I'd rather ask and look like an idiot than assume and be wrong.
Holy crap I wrote a novel!