I need an opinion Part 3

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Leema Har'gachi
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I need an opinion Part 3

Post by Leema Har'gachi »

Well, my current version kind of feels good so far, I think I nail a good way of balancing how use full dodge roll should be. I also made some dramatic changes to the Sword dancer and made the bard... finally. To go a little bit in more depth about the changes to the Sword dancer, first I added the bard's countersong ability at first level and Eilistraee's moonfire was shortened to Moonfire and functions a bit closer to the original 2nd edition ability though it can still be used to deal damage. Now not only do they gain more uses of moonfire as they level up, but every four levels its damage increase by one dice. The second change I made was in how dark maiden's grace worked, it now works in tandem with moonfire. The third and more major change is the removal of the sword atonement feature, it just wasn't as use compared to the silvery blade feature, mostly do to the whole atonement function so I decided to drop it in favor of a new ability that makes use of the dance skill as both a defense against physical attack and to give them better survivability against spells and breath weapons. Essentially it functions like the rogues evasion ability from 3rd/3.5 edition. So feel free to read the thing in its entirety and tell me your thoughts.

Fighter
Prime Ability: Strength
Starting Character Ability Score Adjustment: +1 to strength, dexterity, or constitution.
Starting Hit Points: 10 + constitution modifier.
Starting Weapon Proficiencies: 12 weapon proficiencies slots.
Starting Skill Points: 4 skill points at 1st level.
Starting Money: 4d4x10.
Class Features
Hit Dice: 1d10
Weapon Proficiencies Slots at Higher Level: One weapon proficiencies slot at 3rd level and every three levels afterwards.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: Two skill points at each level after 1st level.
Skills Proficiencies: Acrobatics, bluff, climb, craft, discern motive, diplomacy, force object, hold breath, intimidate, jump, knowledge dungeoneering, knowledge geography, and knowledge history.
Weapon Specialization: At 2nd level, choose one melee or range weapon that you are proficient with. Whenever you use the selected weapon to attack you gain a +1 bonus on your attack roll and a +2 bonus on damage rolls with that weapon. When you select a range weapon to specialize in, you only gain the +2 to damage rolls as long as you are within 60 feet of your target. You can select another weapon to specialize in at 9th and 12th level.
Attacks Per Turn: At 5th level, when you use your action to attack with a melee or range weapon you can for your move action to attack again. During anytime between attacks you may move up to 5 feet once. You gain a third attack at 10th level and a fourth at 15th level.
Improved Weapon Specialization: At 6th level, choose one melee or range weapon that you selected to specialize in. You bonus on your attack and damage rolls with that weapon increases by one to a +2 bonus on attack rolls and +3 damage rolls. You can select another weapon to improve your specialization in at 14th level.
Critical Hit: At 10th level, when you make an attack roll with a weapon you have specialized in and roll a natural 20. You deal maximum damage with that weapon; range weapons only deal maximum damage as long as the target is within 60 feet of you.
Dodge Roll: At 13th level, when an enemy that is within 30 feet of you that you can see makes an attack roll that would hit you. You can use your reaction to make dexterity save as you roll 5 feet forward, left, or right stopping in a legal space. The DC for this save is equal to their attack roll; on a successful save you take no damage. Every two levels you gain a +1 bonus on your dexterity save when you make a dodge roll to a max of +5 at 23rd level, this bonus only applies to the dodge roll.
Greater Weapon Specialization: At 15th level, choose one melee or range weapon that you selected to improve your specialization in. Your bonus on your attack and damage rolls with that weapon increase by one to a +3 bonus on attack rolls and +4 bonus on damage rolls.
Improved Critical: At 20th level, when you attack with a weapon you have specialized in and roll a natural 20 or 19 you deal a critical hit.

Bard
Prime Ability: Charisma
Starting Character Ability Score Adjustment: +1 to dexterity, intelligence, or charisma.
Starting Hit points: 6 +constitution modifier.
Starting Weapon Proficiencies: 10 weapon proficiencies slots.
Starting Skill Points: 6 skill points at 1st level.
Starting Money:
Class Features
Hit Dice: 1d6
Weapon Proficiencies Slots at Higher Level: One weapon proficiencies slots at 4th level and every four levels afterwards.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: Four skill points at each level after 1st level.
Skill Proficiencies: Acrobatics, bluff, climb, craft, disable device, discern motive, diplomacy, hide, hold breath, intimidate, jump, knowledge dungeoneering, knowledge geography, knowledge history, listen, move silently, open locks, perform, search, sleight of hand, spot, and swim
Charming Music: When you play for a full-round you can attempt to charm up to 1 hit dice per level of creatures within 30 feet of you that were capable of listening to you playing. Creatures who fail their saves are under the effects of charm person (or charm monsters for bards of 5th level or higher). Bards of 8th level or higher can attempt to implant a suggestion in their song; creatures that listen to it must make a save. On a successful save, a creature cannot be affected by this ability for the next 24 hours.
Arcane Spellcasting: You have learned how to channel the arcane energy from the very fabric of the universe. You can shape this energy by your skills with songs and music into the spells you cast. When casting spells or using an ability that requires you to use your spellcasting ability you use your charisma score as your spellcasting ability. The DC of spells that you cast that require a saving throw is 10+ ability modifier + proficiency bonus. When you cast a spell that requires an attack roll you add your ability modifier to the attack roll.
Bard -Spells Per Day-
Level Class Features 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1 Charming Music (charm person), Arcane Spellcasting, Counter Song 1 - - - - -
2 Sneak Attack 1d6, Legend Lore 2 - - - - -
3 Bardic Music (improve moral) 2 1 - - - -
4 3 2 - - - -
5 Charming Music (charm monster) 3 2 1 - - -
6 Bardic Music (cause fear or sadness), Sneak Attack 2d6 3 2 2 - - -
7 Improved Legend Lore +2 4 3 2 1 - -
8 Charming Music (suggestion) 4 3 3 2 - -
9 4 3 3 2 1 -
10 Sneak Attack 3d6 4 4 3 3 2 -
11 Counter Charm 5 4 4 3 2 1
12 Bardic Music (hold person) 5 4 4 3 3 2
13 5 4 4 4 3 2
14 Improve Legend Lore +4, Sneak Attack 4d6 5 4 4 4 3 3
15 6 5 4 4 4 3
16 Bardic Music (Break Enchantment) 6 5 5 4 4 3
17 6 5 5 4 4 4
18 Sneak Attack 5d6 6 5 5 5 4 4
19 6 6 5 5 4 4
20 Bardic Music (Revivify) 6 6 6 5 5 4

Spontaneous Casting: You do not have to prepare spells ahead of times to cast them; you also have a limited number of spells that you know that you can cast. You must channel the energies into your body to have the necessary energy to cast your spells, after having at least 8 hours of rest (racial features that allow you to get the benefits of 8 hours of rest quicker also affect the time needed before preparing spells as well). This process of channeling the energy you need takes 30 minutes to complete, it takes five minutes less to complete for each positive intelligence modifier as your ability to focus the energies. When you want to cast a spell you simply focus the energies as you preform the musical incantations and needs only select the spell of the appropriate spell level to cast it using the spell slot of the same level or higher.
Spells known: You know a limited number of spells that you can cast each day. You start out with three plus your intelligence modifier 1st level spells of your choice that you know at 1st level drawn from the bards spell list. Whenever you gain a level you learn two new spells of your choice of any spell level of you can cast as a bard. After 20th level, you stop learning new spells, but can give up knowledge of one spell you know to learn one spell of any spell level you can cast at 21st level and every odd numbered level after that.
Countersong: As a bard you are skilled in using your song and/or music to counter the effects of sound base effects like a harpies scream, the command or sound burst spells, or other kinds of magical effects that depend on sound. While you are singing or playing your Countersong, you and all creatures who can hear it add your caster level and your charisma modifier on save throws against any of those sound base effects. If a creature that was only being affected by such of an effect can hear your counter song, they gain a new save throw with your modifiers. A bard may keep this song up for one minute per level as a bard.
Sneak Attack: At 2nd level, you learn how to make the most of when your opponent is distracted or cut off guard. When a creature is unaware of your presence is being flanked by you and another creature that is hostile to it, or is in some other way unable to properly watch out for a strike to a vital area, you can make an attack roll striking at the creature vital areas or other weak points. On a successful attack, you deal an additional 1d6 points of damage this damage is applied after any modifier or effects. You can use a range weapon to sneak attack, but only up to 60 feet as you must be able to identify your targets vital areas or weak spots. You cannot use sneak attack against oozes and other creatures without any particular vital areas or weak points. At 6th level and every four levels afterwards your sneak attack gains an additional 1d6 points of damage up to a max of 5d6. This ability cannot be use with or in addition to backstab, if you would have both at the same time you must choose one to use. You make only perform one sneak attack per turn.
Legend Lore: At 2nd level, your extensive time traveling and listening to stories told by others has given you a keen insight into the history of many famous and powerful objects and people. Whenever you make an intelligence check or a knowledge history check you add one half your bard levels to your check to a minimum of +1. For every 5 points higher than a DC 10 check you manage to roll, you know some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. At 7th level and every seven levels afterwards you gain an additional +2 bonus on any knowledge history check.
Bardic Music: At 3rd level once per day, you can use your songs or musical instruments to produce magical effects that affect everyone around you (you can allow yourself to be included in the magical affects you create). Every three levels you can use this ability one additional time per day. You start with knowledge of only one bardic song at 3rd level and you gain more bardic songs at you level up to 6th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level.
Improve Moral: At 3rd level, you learned this tune designed to inspire courage and strength into everyone for hears it. You must start playing this song for a full-round before its affects start to activate all creatures within 30 feet of you gain a +1 moral bonus on attack rolls and a +2 moral bonus on any skill check that doesn’t require intense focus. This song can only be played for up to 10 minutes.
Cause Fear or Sadness: At 6th level, you learn a heart wrenching song that can drive anyone to tears or into instant fear of you. You must start playing this song for a full-round before it affects start to activate and you must choose which version to use before you start playing the song, all creatures within 30 feet of you must make a save throw with a DC of your spell save DC or suffer the effects of the song you choose to uses. Cause fear makes all creatures within 30 feet who failed their saves to become frightened of the songs player and they take a -1 penalty on attack rolls against the songs player. Cause sadness makes all creatures within 30 feet of you who failed their saves be overcome with grief and shudder strongly with tears of sadness, they take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and skill checks until the song stops or they leave the affected area. This song can only be played for up to 10 minutes.
Hold Person: At 12th level, you learn a song that stops a person in their tracks unable to move or act. You must start playing this song for a full-round before it affects start to activate, all creatures within 30 feet of you must make a save throw with a DC of your spell save DC or suffer the effects of a hold person spell for the duration of this song. Hold person immobilizes all affected creature, preventing them from moving or acting. This song can only be played for up to 10 minutes.
Break Enchantment: At 16th level, you learn a song that breaks any form of magical enchantment on any creature within this area. You must start playing this song for a full-round before it affects start to activate, all creatures within 30 feet of you who hear this song is freed from any of enchantment, transmutations effects and curse if you succeed on a caster level check d20 + your caster level vs a DC 10 + the caster level of the person or creature who originally created the effect. This ability only works if the spells on the creatures is of 5th level or lower. This song can only be played for up to 5 minutes.
Revivify: At 20th level, you learn a song that can awaken those who have recently died. You must start playing this song for a full round before it starts to activate, all creatures within 30 feet of you who have recently died within one round of the start of this effect or died during the period of time that this song continues to play get revived to 1 hit point, any creatures brought back by this song remains unconscious 1d6 rounds and for the next 24 hours have their constitution score lower by 1, this lowering of the creatures constitution score is accumulative for each time the creature is brought back (creatures whose constitution score would be lowered to one by this song cannot be revived). Any deceased creature caught by this effect can choose not to come back if they wish and they are aware of the name, alignment, and deity of the bard using this song (memory of the alignment and deity of the bard disappears if they accept to be revived by this song if they didn’t already know that information). This song can only be played for up to 3 minutes.
Counter Charm: at 11th level, you can use your countersong to snap any creature able to hear it out of any of the fallowing charm spells: charm person, charm monster, fascinate, dominate person, and dominate monster. Creatures who can hear the song add your caster level and charisma modifier to their save throw against those spell or any charm effect that replicates such an affect. Creatures that are already under such an effect who hears the song get another save throw with your modifiers.

Sword Dancer
Prime Ability: Charisma
Starting Character Ability Score Adjustment: +1 to strength, dexterity, or charisma.
Starting Hit points: 6 +constitution modifier.
Starting Weapon Proficiencies: 10 weapon proficiencies slots.
Starting Skill Points: 5 skill points at 1st level.
Starting Money:
Class Features
Hit Dice: 1d6
Weapon Proficiencies Slots at Higher Level: One weapon proficiencies slots at 4th level and every four levels afterwards.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: Three skill points at each level after 1st level.
Skill Proficiencies: Acrobatics, bluff, climb, craft, dancing, discern motive, diplomacy, hide, jump, knowledge dungeoneering, knowledge history, knowledge religion, listen, move silently, perform, search, singing, spot, and swim.
Divine Spellcasting: You have the ability to channel the power of your goddess through prayer and belief. You deity allow you to cast spells on its behalf to aid in your goddess cause, these spell draw strength from your faith in them. When casting spells or using an ability that requires you to use your spellcasting ability you use your Charisma score as your spellcasting ability. The DC of spells that you cast that require a saving throw is 10+ ability modifier + proficiency bonus. When you cast a spell that requires an attack roll you add your ability modifier to the attack roll.
Preparing Spells: You have a limited number of spell slots each day that you can use to cast spells, in order to cast these spells you must prepare them ahead of time. You must prepare a number of spell equal to the number of spell slots you have access to, you must prepare the spell in a spell slot of the same level as the spell or you can prepare it in a higher level spell slot. You cannot prepare a higher level spell into a lower level spell slot. The spells you prepare are drawn from the sword dancers spell list. You prepare you spell by praying to your goddess after having spent at least 8 hours of rest (racial features that allow you to get the benefits of 8 hours of rest quicker also affect the time needed before preparing spells as well). This praying is a ritualistic and often very personal in nature taking an hour to use your connection with your deity to bestow your spells to you, this process takes five minutes less for each positive charisma modifier as your connection with your deity is stronger.
Moonfire: Once per day, as a spell-like ability you can call forth a blue-white, soft green, white, or silver flame of moonfire as an action. This moonfire can glow faintly or bright (not blindingly so and cannot be brighter than daylight) up to 30 feet of moonlight. You can use these cold flames of moonlight to make a melee attack against a single target (if you do so the moonfire winks out wither you hit or miss the target), on a successful hit the moonfire deals 1d6 + your charisma modifier cold damage (you deal an additional 1d6 at 4th level and every four levels thereafter). Sword dancers of 4th level or higher can command the moonfire to leave their bodies and form into an orb of moonlight that functions identically to the dancing lights spell, and can be commanded to move through small creaks or key holes if desired, commanding the orb of moonfire to move is a swift action. The moonfire functions as a 2nd level light spell, that dispels darkness and negates such spells or effect even as the moonfire itself is being negated. The moonfire has an duration of one minute per sword dancer level, until dismissed or used as part of an attack. At 3rd level and every odd number level thereafter you gain one additional daily usage of the moonfire.
Sword Dancer -Spells Per Day-
Level Class Features 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1 Countersong, Divine Spellcasting, Moonfire 1/day 1 - - - - - - - -
2 2 - - - - - - - -
3 Dark Maidens Grace, Moonfire 2/day 2 1 - - - - - - -
4 Attacks per Turn (1 extra attack), Moonfire (2d6) 3 2 - - - - - - -
5 Moonfire 3/day 3 2 1 - - - - - -
6 Lady Silverhair’s Armor 3 2 2 - - - - - -
7 Moonfire 4/day 4 3 2 1 - - - - -
8 Attacks per Turn (2 extra attack), Moonfire (3d6) 4 3 3 2 - - - - -
9 Moonfire 5/day, Silvery Blade 4 3 3 2 1 - - - -
10 4 4 3 3 2 - - - -
11 Moonfire 6/day 5 4 4 3 2 1 - - -
12 Moonfire (4d6) 5 4 4 3 3 2 - - -
13 Moonfire 7/day 5 4 4 4 3 2 1 - -
14 Lady of the Dance’s Step 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 - -
15 Moonfire 8/day 6 5 4 4 4 3 2 1 -
16 Moonfire (5d6) 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 -
17 Moonfire 9/day 6 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1
18 Spellsong 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2
19 Moonfire 10/day 6 6 5 5 4 4 4 3 2
20 Moonfire (6d6) 6 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3

Countersong: As a sword dancer you are skilled in using your song and/or music to counter the effects of sound base effects like a harpies scream, the command or sound burst spells, or other kinds of magical effects that depend on sound. While you are singing or playing your Countersong, you and all creatures who can hear it add your caster level and your charisma modifier on save throws against any of those sound base effects. If a creature that was only being affected by such of an effect can hear your counter song, they gain a new save throw with your modifiers. A sword dancer may keep this song up for one minute per level as a sword dancer.
Dark Maidens Grace: At 3rd level, you can give up one use of your moonfire to cast magic missile as a spell-like ability as a swift action (treat magic missile as if it was casted in a 2nd level spell slot). The bolts of the magic missile created with this ability resemble brightly glowing bastard swords that shoot unerringly at the targeted creatures within range. If one of the bolts touches an area of magical darkness of 2nd level or lower both the bolt and the darkness are dispelled, if the darkness spell is of a higher level the bolts are harmlessly negated.
Attacks per Turn: At 4th level, when you use your action to attack with a melee or range weapon you can for your move action to attack again. During anytime between attacks you may move up to 5 feet once. You gain a third attack at 8th level.
Lady Silverhair’s Armor: At 6th level, as a swift action you can channel Eilistraee’s power within you to infuse your hair, causing it to glow softly with silver light which aluminate up to 10 times your charisma modifier feet away. You can dismiss this power whenever you want as a swift action. While your hair glows and you are not wearing armor or using a shield you add your charisma modifier to your armor class in addition to your dexterity. This is a supernatural ability.
Silvery Blade: At 9th level, three times per day as an action you can channel Eilistraee’s holy power into a single bladed weapon that you are touching. For one hour, the blade glows with a silvery radiance that makes the weapon resistance against damage, immune to the effects of rust and acid, and give a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls for the duration of the effect. This is a supernatural ability.
Lady of the Dance’s Step: At 14th level, whenever you make a dexterity save against a breath weapon, spell, or other related save for half damage, add your charisma modifier to your save throw. You take half damage on a failed save and no damage on a successful save. Once per round as a reaction, when a creature you can see makes an attack targeting you, make a dancing check vs a DC of 10 + the creatures attack modifier. On a successful dancing check, your armor class increase by 2 until the end of the round.
Spellsong: At 18th level, you learn how to sing the spellsong, a sacred song to Eilistraee that her most dedicated sword dancers know. Multiple sword dancers or clerics can join in with the spellsong to increase its power; they must have either this class feature or the 9th level spell, greater spellsong. The sword dancer and any additional participates must have enough room to dance and sing freely, without any form of magical silence hindering them. This last for at least one action, or for as long one round per 100 gp of value of the spells effects material component, or for as long as the chore wish to hold the songs effect.
With a single singer the fallowing effects can be produced by the spellsong:
It can cause an effect equivalent to any desired cleric spell of 4th level or lower, the effect doesn’t require any of the usual somatic components or most material component (really costly components that are used up may be required, provided that its cost is over 100 gp). The effect has the normal range, duration, and so on, if an effect depends on caster level it uses the singers who leads the chore.
It can restore to memory one spell that the singer has casted within 24 hours and they can cast it immediately, provided it was not casted from a scroll.
With 2 or more singers the fallowing effects can be produced:
It can be used to produce a spell immunity effect, either targeting one of the participates or one person within the normal range of a spell immunity spell. Unlike normal spell immunity spells, the target can be immune to a single selected spell of 5th level or one level higher for every three additional participates. Also, if ten or more are participating all participates also gain the protection of the spell immunity effect (with the same spell selected).
Another use of the spellsong allows a singer to heal 1d4+1 points of damage to themselves or one creature touched. Each other singer cleric can touch the injured creature to heal an additional 1d4+1 points of damage per cleric. This effect cannot be used in the same way as normal healing to deal damage to undead.
If seven or more cleric is singing together, they can cure blindness, slow poison, or cure disease instead of healing damage.
If nine or more cleric are participating, a dispel magic, remove curse, neutralize poison can be casted. Dispel magic and remove curse uses the highest level participate to determine the effect.
If twelve or more cleric participate, regeneration, resurrection can be made instead or one level of lost experience that was lost in the last day can be restored.
If twenty or more cleric participates, a true resurrection spell can be work, but uses the total level of all participates to determine how long dead of the target can be revived.
CODENAME:Leema
Real Name:Leema Apollyon Har'gachi
Class:Variant Illusionist Favored Soul {gestalt}
Race:Shadow Drow
Height:5'8"
Weight:158 Ib.
Hair:Yellowish
Eyes:Purple(pinwheel)
Skin:Pitch-black(surrounded by Shadowy Purple Aura)
Deity:Eilistraee
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Irennan
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Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:13 pm
Location: Italy

Re: I need an opinion Part 3

Post by Irennan »

I like the Sword Dancer, and the Fighter, but there are a few things that I'm uncertain about.

To start off, something very minor. Dark Maiden's Grace could be renamed to Dark Maiden's Fury, given what it does :P

I'd standardize ''Dodge Roll'' and the active part of ''Lady of the Dance's step", and give to whoever can use that kind of ability, the possibility to expend a reaction upon being hit by an attack, and take a Dance or Acrobatics check against 10+enemy attack bonus to deny the attack. I think that it's better to standardize the particular mechanics that you develop for your system, in order to being able to easily compare and assign ''power'' to the various classes. But I don't know in what range of numbers the values of attack bonuses and skill bonuses fall in your system, so that may be unbalanced (and the dodge roll might be superior as it is now, considering the bonus that it gets. So maybe you could apply the bonus to the skill check, if needed. Or grant advantage, which is +3.8 on average, losing out at higher levels, but gaining points at lower ones). You could also call the mechanic ''acrobatic/dancing dodge'', or something along those lines.
Since not all Fighters are agile, you might grant the possibility to choose between the dodge roll, and a parry skill. The difference would be that a parry skill, while working exactly as the doge roll, uses your atk bonus vs 10+enemy atk bonus, but can only be used against melee attacks. Unless you have a shield. In which case you can also parry ranged attacks, but you lose the shield AC bonus until you ''ready'' it again in your turn in the next round (the logic behind it being inferior, is that you aren't required to invest any extra point in a non-combat skill to make it work).

I'd personally move this defensive skills to low-mid level 6 to 9), because it would be a pretty defining aspect of the class' defenses (maybe combine it with Armour of Silverhair, and rename it Eilistraee's Grace). I'd also split Lady of the Dance's step in two (one granting +CHA to ref saves and normal evasion, and the other upgrading it to greater evasion, instead of just having the latter). I'd grant the first part in the mid-levels, the second would stay at 14.

One last thing, I don't think that a caster should get the extra attack before a fighter does. It would feel awful for the fighter player. What about saves?

Ok, about the Bard. Honestly, I don't think think sneak attack fits a bard. My first reaction would be to make it a full caster, like in 5e, and grant it a ''secret knowledge'' feature, like in 5e, but lower the spells/day (in order to distinguish it from a sorcerer).

If you want a half caster, I'd suggest replacing sneak attack with a feature that uses your bonus action to improve your attack through your music. Since sneak attack is conditional, I'd also make this feature conditional. For example, you take Song check as a swift/bonus action (I don't know how this works in your system, I guess that they are the same, tho) and grant you a given bonus, depending on what you wanted to do.

The song could grant your attack a bonus to hit, *or* extra thunder damage (Xd6, less than the sneak attack) *or* some particular effects, like a burst of sound on impact that can knock the enemy prone, a ''bleed'' effects caused by windblades around your weapon evoked by your performance, a short frigthened or confused effect, AoE thunder damage, and so on.
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Leema Har'gachi
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Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:19 am
Location: Currently Off Realms
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Re: I need an opinion Part 3

Post by Leema Har'gachi »

Ok, its been awhile since I did much of anything with my project, but I believe its time to talk about what I've been working on from before Joe died, Ability Scores particularly how they are rolled and the Ability that nobody cared about: Comeliness.


[quote:2o6jiqmm]
Abilities Scores
When creating a character you must determine the score of the seven characteristic that each character has. You do this but rolling d6s, there are several methods of doing this, but the first one is the one we advise you to use. Each method has a difficulty next to it describing how hard it is to get natural roll of 16 or higher.
1: Roll 3d6 seven times, place into each ability as desired. (normal)
2: Roll 4d6 seven times, drop the lowest number in each set and set the abilities as desired. (easy)
3: Roll 3d6 seven times, place into each ability as desired then choose two abilities other than comeliness and reroll the lowest number. If the new number is higher than the old roll keep it, otherwise you use the original roll. (normal)
4: Roll 3d6 seven times and place in order Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and Comeliness. (hard)
5: All ability score start with a base value of 6, then roll 2d6 seven times and place in order Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and Comeliness. (very easy)

[b:2o6jiqmm]Ability Score [3]/ Ability Modifier/ Initial Reaction Effect (COM)[/b:2o6jiqmm]
3 / -3 / -
4-5 / -2 / -
6-8 / -1 / -
9-12 / 0 / -
13-15 / +1 / Fascinated
16-17 / +2 / Fascinated
18 / +3 / Fascinated
19-20 / +4 / Charm Person
21-22 [1] / +5 / Charm Person
23-24 [1]/ +6 / Charm Person
25-26 [1, 2] / +7 / Charm Person
27-28 [2]/ +8 / Dominate Person
29-30 [2]/ +9 / Dominate Person

[1] Ability scores of 21-25 are not obtainable to characters under normal circumstance, but can be obtained through magical items and spells.
[2] Ability scores of 26 or higher are reserved for monsters and gods.
[3] You can figure your maximum carrying weight by multiplying your strength score by 12.5 and dropping any decimals.

Each character has seven major defining characteristics; these Abilities are split into two categories: Physical abilities (Str, Dex, Con, and Com) and Mental Abilities (Int, Wis, and Cha). These abilities are scored by rolling six sided dice and create a range of 3 to 18 natural before adding racial modifier and such. Depending on the ability in question and your score, you will gain a modifier on certain types of rolls pertaining to that ability. An average human tends to a 10 in every score; however there are plenty of individuals with one or more abilities that are 13 or higher. These rules assume a character has at least two abilities with score of 13 or higher and perhaps on average possess one ability score less than 9. Any character with three or more abilities with score less than 9 will have difficulties surviving adventures, even if they have one natural 18, though some might find it a good challenge to try and make such a character survive despite the odds. The seven abilities are described in detail below, they are: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and Comeliness.

Strength: A character’s strength ability is a measurement of endurance, muscle strength, and overall stamina when physically interacting with object like picking them up, striking them, and pushing or interacting with them in any other kind of way. You apply your strength modifier when you try to break down a door or similar things, attacks with a melee weapon, dealing damage with the physical force of the weapon, and when making a saving throw against paralyzation effects. A characters strength also determines how much weight they can carry or lift above their head, this number is show on the table above for each score, however you can also figure out how much something can carry by multiplying their strength score by 12.5 and rounding down to the nearest whole number.

Dexterity: A character’s dexterity is their agility, reflexes, hand-eye coordination, balance, and ease of movement. You use dexterity when you try to dodge an attack thrown at you, when you are steadying a bow to fire, or when you are balancing your weight while walking across a small platform. You apply your dexterity modifier when you make an attack with a range or throw weapon, perform a dexterity based skill like sleight of hand, when you are determining your armor class, and when making a saving throw against breath weapons or against spell that create damaging effect within an area like burning hand or fireball.

Constitution: A character’s constitution is their health, resistance to sickness, and overall fitness. Your constitution determines how much physical punishment you can take, how quickly you recover from injury or sickness. You apply your constitution modifier when you determine your starting Hit points, when you roll a hit dice at each new level, when you make a hold breath check, and when you make a saving throw against poisons, petrification, polymorph, and instant death effects.

Intelligence: A character’s intelligence is your mnemonic abilities, reasoning and learning capabilities beyond just written material. You use intelligence when you think to solve a puzzle, learn a new language, or learn a new skill. You apply your intelligence modifier when you determine how many additional languages you know, your total number of times per day you can cast cantrips as a wizard, how long it takes you to prepare spells as a wizard, when performing intelligence based skills like knowledge arcane, and when making a saving throw against rods, staffs, and wands. Your intelligence score also determine the percent you have to roll on a d100 to learn a new spell from a scroll or spellbook (you must roll equal to or less than the number written in the table above), remember you must have an intelligence of at least 9 to cast arcane spells.
Wisdom: A character’s wisdom is your judgement, willpower, wile, and enlightenment. You use wisdom when you notice something in your environment that you weren’t looking for, when you believe something based on experience, or when you will yourself to do something. You apply your wisdom modifier when you determine how long it takes you to prepare spells as a cleric, when you make a spot check, and when making a saving throw against spells that affect the mind, or other compulsion based effects.

Charisma: A character’s charisma is your persuasiveness and personal magnetism. You use charisma when you try to persuade someone to do something for you or when people want to help you. You apply your charisma modifier when you make a reaction roll to get a charmed creature to do something it wouldn’t normally do, when you make a charisma based skill like diplomacy, and when you make a turn undead check. Your charisma score also determine the maximum number of followers you can have at one time, you can attract followers simply be making a name for yourself and then make reaction roll to persuade them to be your hireling also some races have abilities that allow you to charm individuals into service, they count against the total number of followers you can have at one time.

Comeliness: A character’s comeliness is your physical attractiveness, social grace, and personal beauty. You apply your Comeliness modifier when you make a reaction roll, Diplomacy and bluff skills, and a modifier opposite of your Comeliness modifier on intimidate skills (a +3 comeliness modifier adds a -3 to your intimidate checks).You also use your Comeliness score when you charm creature to determine the maximum number of charmed creatures you can have at one times, charmed creature also count as followers for as long as they are charmed. When you succeed on a reaction roll (or a Diplomacy check if the DM allows), by 10 higher than the creatures apposed roll and your Comeliness score is high enough they can be affected by the beauty of your character in a variety of ways.

Fascinated: A creature with a Comeliness score of 13-18 who succeed on their reaction roll by 10 higher than need causes the creature who loses the check to make a saving throw against a compulsion or be fascinated with the creature with this high a Comeliness score. The fascination lasts for as long as the creatures are within eye-sight of each other, the fascinated creature will focus its attention on the creature of its affection, they take a -1 penalty on search, spot, listen, intimidate, and bluff skill checks and a -2 penalty on attack rolls. The creature also goes out of its way to make sure the creature of its affection doesn’t come to harm in any way.
[/quote:2o6jiqmm]

I haven't quite finished the Reaction roll effects for high comeliness score, mostly because I'm not sure how to word the rest of it yet. I can use some feed back and if you like you can tell me your feelings of the original Comeliness score introduced in 1st editions Unearthed Arcana.
CODENAME:Leema
Real Name:Leema Apollyon Har'gachi
Class:Variant Illusionist Favored Soul {gestalt}
Race:Shadow Drow
Height:5'8"
Weight:158 Ib.
Hair:Yellowish
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Skin:Pitch-black(surrounded by Shadowy Purple Aura)
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Re: I need an opinion Part 3

Post by Irennan »

I like this, but I have two ''doubts'', so to speak.

First, before getting to an ability score of 16, the range of ''dead values'' (ability score values that don't get you to a higher bonus if you increase them by 1. For example, adding +1 when one of your ability scores is 13 or 14 won't get you to a +2 bonus on checks) is larger than in normal D&D. Considering that the bonus on rolls that they provide doesn't really make that much of a difference on a d20, an ability score of 13 feels basically the same as an ability score of 18 (the character with 18 has a +10% chance of success than the character with 13). Admittedly, this is something that I don't like about D&D either, but I think that the difference between, say, a clever enough guy, and a genius, should be more than 10% chance of success.

Second, I don't get why a high comeliness score comes with a penality on intimidation checks. Someone with good acting/social skills (or strong enough, or famed enough, and so on) should be able to indimidate people regardless of their looks, IMHO. Plus, beauty doesn't automatically equal a cute or kind appearance. Women can look beautiful, but deadly/badass, and so can men. There is also the ''ruggedly handsome'' type, which can be every bit as intimidating as some ugly cutthroat.

That said, I think that you could add the possibility to use a point buy system for the 6 standard D&D stats (weak = 25; average = 28; above average = 32; powerful = 36. 4d6 drop lowest equals roughly to a 36 pt buy), and then roll for comeliness (this stat seems to not have as many uses as the others, at a first glance, unless you're playing a mostly social/intrigue campaign).
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Re: I need an opinion Part 3

Post by Leema Har'gachi »

I'll try to answer these as best as I can.
[quote="Irennan":26sr4rfb]I like this, but I have two ''doubts'', so to speak.

First, before getting to an ability score of 16, the range of ''dead values'' (ability score values that don't get you to a higher bonus if you increase them by 1. For example, adding +1 when one of your ability scores is 13 or 14 won't get you to a +2 bonus on checks) is larger than in normal D&D. Considering that the bonus on rolls that they provide doesn't really make that much of a difference on a d20, an ability score of 13 feels basically the same as an ability score of 18 (the character with 18 has a +10% chance of success than the character with 13). Admittedly, this is something that I don't like about D&D either, but I think that the difference between, say, a clever enough guy, and a genius, should be more than 10% chance of success.[/quote:26sr4rfb]

For the most part, yes compared to modern D&D (3rd/3.5/4th/5th edition) the +1 (effective +5% on D20 rolls) of 13-15's are conciderable less of a difference than the +1 of 12-13(+5% on d20) or +2 of 14-15 (+10% on d20 rolls) compared to the +4 of 18-19 (+20% on d20). This is mostly because of the Neutral values is closer to OD&D/1st/2nd edition rather than 3rd/3.5/4th and 5th edition (being of course 10-11 +0), This is mostly because on a bell curve of 3d6 (yes I know, you can literally pull this out of 1st editions DMG, but bare with me.) 9, 10, 11, and 12 have the highest percentage of being roll with 10 and 11 being tied (which is thematically is why a average human has 10 or 11 in D&D and is more importantly why 3rd and up has them as there only +0), however my main interest where less the 10-11 and more the -1/+1 of 9 and 12 in modern D&D. Since the 9 has the same percentage chance of being rolled as 12, these mean those -1 are just as likely to happen, especially with average or bad rolls, so I... extended the range to nullify the -1 spam, granted this also means the +1 without racial modifier is a bit less likely as well to appear. I'll also admit I could have just made the modifiers go something like this 13-14 +1, 15-16 +2 17 +3 18 +4 and if memory serves I did try this or something like it at one point, but something didn't feel right to me. Granted Ability score are modified by race(subrace if any) and starting class up to a +2 to a single ability, it doesn't give much of a chance to get out of the 13-15 +1 zone.

[quote="Irennan":26sr4rfb]Second, I don't get why a high comeliness score comes with a penality on intimidation checks. Someone with good acting/social skills (or strong enough, or famed enough, and so on) should be able to indimidate people regardless of their looks, IMHO. Plus, beauty doesn't automatically equal a cute or kind appearance. Women can look beautiful, but deadly/badass, and so can men. There is also the ''ruggedly handsome'' type, which can be every bit as intimidating as some ugly cutthroat.[/quote:26sr4rfb]

The concept be hind the applying your comeliness modifier as a penalty (if its positive) or bonus (if negative), is because it is operating on the fallowing logic (if flawed it might be): Creatures are easily distracted by creature who are beautiful making them easier to fool (bluff) or persuade to do things for you (diplomacy), but are too distracted by your beauty to be effectively forced/coerced into doing something except by those who know how to use it to there advantage. Essentially, it becomes import to invest in both charisma and comeliness to make the most of one. In otherwords the two abilities work best when used in conjunction, but you must be careful in how you go about investing in them. This also make the side effects of having high comeliness not without their weaknesses.

[quote="Irennan":26sr4rfb]That said, I think that you could add the possibility to use a point buy system for the 6 standard D&D stats (weak = 25; average = 28; above average = 32; powerful = 36. 4d6 drop lowest equals roughly to a 36 pt buy), and then roll for comeliness (this stat seems to not have as many uses as the others, at a first glance, unless you're playing a mostly social/intrigue campaign).[/quote:26sr4rfb]

True, people seem to like point buy. I'll admit, I personally have never had much interest in it myself, I can't explain why... it just feel so good to just roll 3d6, heck its why I seem to always go back to Leema as a character when I try out new addition mechanics it just feels right I guess. I did plan for a point buy system to be in the stuff for the DM, mostly because it works better as a NPC building mechanic players tend to scramble to get as many points in combat abilities and just dump stat anything else (which in point buy means they will have 8's or if you are lucky to some of them who are not as obsessed with 15+'s in them they'll at least make the other 10 or 11)... maybe their is a way to make a better point buy system.... hmmm maybe one that rewards players with other kinds of options.... I don't know.

You right on comeliness, it is made more for humanoid PC interaction... though you could try to use it in combat... by I'm pretty sure all the other players will give you crap for trying to use your "feminine wilds" (if a lady of course) to make the red dragon fall for you. But, hey it could happen... As a rule of thumb however reaction rolls are more of interacting with people in town kind of thing.

On a off-topic tangent, this morning I was working on the weight limit rules for pushing/dragging and deciding to have the max carrying weight (which to remind you I had set as strength times 12.5) multiplied by 4, you know it seemed reasonable to me at the time. Then I calculated what the push/drag for a strength of 3 it ended up being 150 pounds, keep in mind 3 and less are normally found on creature of tiny, diminutive, or fine size, the idea that one of them could push something 150 (3), 100 (2), 50 (1) pounds just seems ridiculous to me... so I'm back to the drawing board trying to figure out another method that would get a more... reasonable number. Any ideas?
CODENAME:Leema
Real Name:Leema Apollyon Har'gachi
Class:Variant Illusionist Favored Soul {gestalt}
Race:Shadow Drow
Height:5'8"
Weight:158 Ib.
Hair:Yellowish
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Skin:Pitch-black(surrounded by Shadowy Purple Aura)
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Re: I need an opinion Part 3

Post by Irennan »

[quote="Leema Har'gachi":6mv56lm1]I'll try to answer these as best as I can.

For the most part, yes compared to modern D&D (3rd/3.5/4th/5th edition) the +1 (effective +5% on D20 rolls) of 13-15's are conciderable less of a difference than the +1 of 12-13(+5% on d20) or +2 of 14-15 (+10% on d20 rolls) compared to the +4 of 18-19 (+20% on d20). This is mostly because of the Neutral values is closer to OD&D/1st/2nd edition rather than 3rd/3.5/4th and 5th edition (being of course 10-11 +0), This is mostly because on a bell curve of 3d6 (yes I know, you can literally pull this out of 1st editions DMG, but bare with me.) 9, 10, 11, and 12 have the highest percentage of being roll with 10 and 11 being tied (which is thematically is why a average human has 10 or 11 in D&D and is more importantly why 3rd and up has them as there only +0), however my main interest where less the 10-11 and more the -1/+1 of 9 and 12 in modern D&D. Since the 9 has the same percentage chance of being rolled as 12, these mean those -1 are just as likely to happen, especially with average or bad rolls, so I... extended the range to nullify the -1 spam, granted this also means the +1 without racial modifier is a bit less likely as well to appear. I'll also admit I could have just made the modifiers go something like this 13-14 +1, 15-16 +2 17 +3 18 +4 and if memory serves I did try this or something like it at one point, but something didn't feel right to me. Granted Ability score are modified by race(subrace if any) and starting class up to a +2 to a single ability, it doesn't give much of a chance to get out of the 13-15 +1 zone.[/quote:6mv56lm1]

Ok, now I see the reason behind your choice. However, the neglectable difference between a genius and a slightly smarter than average guy still feels off to me. The problem that you're trying to avoid stems from the randomness of the roll, which could be solved by a point-buy approach, or by at least allowing you to allocate the rolls, rather than automatically assigning them to a stat (so players would get the strong scores where they need them for the character concept that they want to play).

[quote:6mv56lm1]The concept be hind the applying your comeliness modifier as a penalty (if its positive) or bonus (if negative), is because it is operating on the fallowing logic (if flawed it might be): Creatures are easily distracted by creature who are beautiful making them easier to fool (bluff) or persuade to do things for you (diplomacy), but are too distracted by your beauty to be effectively forced/coerced into doing something except by those who know how to use it to there advantage. Essentially, it becomes import to invest in both charisma and comeliness to make the most of one. In otherwords the two abilities work best when used in conjunction, but you must be careful in how you go about investing in them. This also make the side effects of having high comeliness not without their weaknesses.[/quote:6mv56lm1]

Ok, but to me it seems unfair to say that beautiful people have a harder time being badass even when they work for it (i.e. buy ranks in intimidation, or choose intimidation as a skill in which they are proficient, depending on how skills work in your system). It also seems a bit unfair that all other stats don't have any downside, while comeliness does. It makes it less desireable than other stats (and it already is in a non social-focused campaign).

[quote:6mv56lm1]
On a off-topic tangent, this morning I was working on the weight limit rules for pushing/dragging and deciding to have the max carrying weight (which to remind you I had set as strength times 12.5) multiplied by 4, you know it seemed reasonable to me at the time. Then I calculated what the push/drag for a strength of 3 it ended up being 150 pounds, keep in mind 3 and less are normally found on creature of tiny, diminutive, or fine size, the idea that one of them could push something 150 (3), 100 (2), 50 (1) pounds just seems ridiculous to me... so I'm back to the drawing board trying to figure out another method that would get a more... reasonable number. Any ideas?[/quote:6mv56lm1]

You could use the standard D&D lift tables, since your stats are fairly close to the D&D model. Plus, weight limit is not a really fundamental rule (IMO), so you might afford to only make them a rough model, rather than truly realistic.

If you want a different approach, GURPS (which has a range of values for STR, DEX, and so on comparable to D&D) has a stat called basic lift, which is the weight that you can lift above your head, with one hand, in one second, and it is equal to BL=(Str^2)/5 pounds, rounded down. In in 2 sec you can lift double of your BL; if you use two hands you can lift 8BL above your head in 4 sec.

Encumbrance works like this in that system. It has 5 levels
1)No encumbrance (you carry up to BL pounds and have no penalties)
2)Light E. (you carry up to 2BL pounds, your Movement is reduced by 20%, and you get -1 to dodging, but this penalty has little relevance in D&D since AC isn't just DEX)
3)Medium E. (you carry up to 3BL, Movement reduced by 40%/-2 dodge)
4)Heavy E. (you carry up to 6BL, Movement reduced by 60%/-3 dodge)
5)Extra-Heavy E. (up to 10BL, Movemebt reduced by 80%/-4 dodge)

Keep in mind that, if you want the weight carried at a given time to influence a character's AC, in GURPS, given the usual values of the dodge score (very high ones are about 13-14, they can exceed those values only for truly extraordinary individuals), and given that it uses 3d6 instead of a 20 for all checks, penalties like -1/-2... can be massive, and much more significant than -1 to AC.

It also has tons of rules for pulling, dragging, being assisted and so on, but those are not really relevant.
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Re: I need an opinion Part 3

Post by Leema Har'gachi »

I don't think I've talked about it when I showed off a bit about the classes, so I figure this is a particular time to go a bit into detail of exactly what I am doing with skills and about some ideas I've been thinking of. First of the List of skills Doesn't have much new in it from earlier editions, the thing I am doing with them is how they can be improved over time and how they interact with a classes prime ability.

[b:2bpvabdz]Skills (ability) [/b:2bpvabdz]
Acrobatics (Dexterity)
Bluff (Charisma)
Climb (Strength)
Craft (Intelligence)
Dance (Charisma)
Decipher Script (Intelligence)
Diplomacy (Charisma)
Disable Device (Intelligence)
Discern Motive (wisdom)
Force Object (Strength)
Heal (wisdom)
Hide (Dexterity)
Hold Breath (Constitution)
Intimidate (Charisma)
Jump (Strength)
Knowledge Arcane (Intelligence)
Knowledge Divine (Intelligence)
Knowledge Dungeoneering (Intelligence)
Knowledge Geography (Intelligence)
Knowledge Herbology (Intelligence)
Knowledge History (Intelligence)
Knowledge Nature (Intelligence)
Knowledge Religion (Intelligence)
Listen (Wisdom)
Move Silently (Dexterity)
Open Lock (Dexterity)
Perform (Charisma)
Profession (Wisdom)
Search (Intelligence)
Singing (Charisma)
Sleight of Hand (Dexterity)
Spellcraft (Intelligence)
Spot (wisdom)
Swim (Strength)

A few notes on certain individual skills.
Craft is essential just a combined version of all the craft subskills from 3.5/3rd edition. This makes it easier to deal with the skill point system and mean that it is the ability to craft any item in general.

Force Object is just a alternative to a general strength check to force objects open or brake down door. It implies you are using a kind of twist in your attempt to open the object (I.E. cutting the hinges off the door or similar methods).

Heal makes the assumption that you either have a healing kit (which has materials you can use to actually help a creature recover some health on a check), herbs (that you may have gathered from searching the forests), or some kind of item that could be used to stop bleeding or alleviate the effects of poisons or diseases.

Hide requires either darkness, a source of cover, or something that makes it difficult to be seen while not moving. Otherwise move silently is the skill you should be using (with some exceptions, like with deep enough darkness for example you can make an assumption that creatures without darkvision or Infravision cannot physically see it and would only to need to move silently if moving to avoid being detecting, treat the creature as if it had a hide check of 12 + dexterity modifier).

Hold Breath is well, how long you can hold your breath. This check assumes that you only need to perform one only if you are holding your breath for longer than 30 seconds (5 rounds). The DC is 10 +1 for every 15 seconds past 30 seconds, this check should be perform at the beginning of each round or whenever a creature holding its breath takes physical damage. Jyzumar Elves don't have this worry as long as they have any air left in their third lung, provided of course they still have any air left in their extra lung.

Profession is being more like a general check its more just you use this for any check that a job your character might have, as such this is more likely a down time kind of skill.. Unless you are like a smith, bounty hunter, ect. Its the DM's job to judicate wither a skill instants is a profession check, when their profession might allow another skill I.E. sword smith, ect.

Skills and Prime Abilities
Each class has one ability score that is their prime, when a character rolls a skill check that uses their prime ability they add their mastery bonus in addition to their skill bonus and ability modifier. Furthermore, If you are proficient in a skill that uses your prime ability as its ability you gain a +5 bonus on that skill check.

Skill points
Each class gain a number of skill points at each level based on how well their improve their skill mastery.

Low skill Mastery: 4 skill points at 1st (2 points at each additional level)
High Skill Mastery: 6 skill Points at 1st (4 points at each additional level)

Each level a skill can have one Skill point invested into it to increased your character mastery in the skill, you cannot put more than one skill point per skill at that level until you level up again. A skill can put skill points in skills you are proficent in and only have up to 4 skill points into it before it is mastered.
Skill point/ Level of Mastery/ Skill bonus
0/ Novice/ +0
1/ Apprentice/ +1
2/ Journeyman/ +2
3/ Expert/ +3
4/ Mastery/ +4
CODENAME:Leema
Real Name:Leema Apollyon Har'gachi
Class:Variant Illusionist Favored Soul {gestalt}
Race:Shadow Drow
Height:5'8"
Weight:158 Ib.
Hair:Yellowish
Eyes:Purple(pinwheel)
Skin:Pitch-black(surrounded by Shadowy Purple Aura)
Deity:Eilistraee
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