Just for the record, as I understand it "The Hooded One" is actually Ed Greenwood's wife, acting as a go-between between Ed and the Candlekeep forums. What The Hooded One posts [i:3mkfbdat]is[/i:3mkfbdat] officially from Ed Greenwood, about as direct as you can get it without him posting it himself.
As for the rest... don't confuse the goals and dreams of a faith with the realities of the world. I'm pretty sure Eilistraee [i:3mkfbdat]would[/i:3mkfbdat] accept all equally, but I think this is more for her clergy (male and female alike) to help ease them into the thought that men and women are equal. Sure, it might take a few centuries (if not millennia), but this is working on the timescale of a deity and this is only the first tiny step. After all, the Forgotten Realms is in many ways a world of bigotry and intolerance and it'll take a lot to change that, even just within the followers of a deity who stands for acceptance and equality.
At least that's my take on it. Not everyone agrees.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
Ed Greenwood Talks About Eilistraee
Moderators: Shir'le E. Illios, Bhaern Quel
-
Shir'le E. Illios
- High Priestess
- Posts: 2352
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:51 pm
- Location: Eilistraee.com
- Contact:
-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
Chosen of Eilistraee
When one group has greater rights and dictates over the lives of those around them, and another group has less rights and say over their lives...this is inequality.
You do not promote such equality by bringing other people into the elite group while leaving the other group right where it is.
You do it by making both groups equal, in all things.
That's the problem I have.
The way Eilistraee is being portrayed: 'Lolth light'. Another female Goddess with only 75% of the oppression.
Oppression is oppression no matter how you slice it.
If what is being said about Eilistraee is true, any and every male drow who had fled Lolth and then discovered Eilistraee...would pack up and find Vhaeran (any males with a sense of pride or back bone, heck they fled Lolth, why settle for one form of oppression for another?)
Do you see my point? It smacks of backpeddling and is not making much sense unless one enjoys spouting from hypocrisy.
Eilistraee fights Lolth, yet we are being led to believe some rubbish that she would be ok with treating males as second class citizens nearly the same way Lolths does?
This doesnt sound very wise or farsighted.
If they want to say Eilistraee is just the girl who didnt fall far from Lolths tree then fine...I just want them to admit it up front rather then trying this smoke screen act.
You do not promote such equality by bringing other people into the elite group while leaving the other group right where it is.
You do it by making both groups equal, in all things.
That's the problem I have.
The way Eilistraee is being portrayed: 'Lolth light'. Another female Goddess with only 75% of the oppression.
Oppression is oppression no matter how you slice it.
If what is being said about Eilistraee is true, any and every male drow who had fled Lolth and then discovered Eilistraee...would pack up and find Vhaeran (any males with a sense of pride or back bone, heck they fled Lolth, why settle for one form of oppression for another?)
Do you see my point? It smacks of backpeddling and is not making much sense unless one enjoys spouting from hypocrisy.
Eilistraee fights Lolth, yet we are being led to believe some rubbish that she would be ok with treating males as second class citizens nearly the same way Lolths does?
This doesnt sound very wise or farsighted.
If they want to say Eilistraee is just the girl who didnt fall far from Lolths tree then fine...I just want them to admit it up front rather then trying this smoke screen act.
-
Unen_Stealthfoot
- Legend
- Posts: 1567
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:51 am
[color=indigo:vydzh3w9]But Eilistraee, unlike lolth, doesn't force you to follow her. You can follow any goodly diety, though of course she prefers it if you worship her. But as Shirle says, I think this is just to ease males into a less oppressive state. Male drow are used to taking orders from females. Males [i:vydzh3w9]are[/i:vydzh3w9] allowed to become priests, they just [i:vydzh3w9]usually[/i:vydzh3w9] don't get to be high-ranking if they insist on remaining male, simply because most of the people who make such decisions are female and mortals (well intentioned or not) are usually biased. Such a decision has little directly to do with Eilistraee herself, except in very special cases, when she is obviously showing exceptional divine favor in a specific person.[/color:vydzh3w9]
Life before death
Strength before weakness
Journey before destination
Strength before weakness
Journey before destination
Taking orders from females still occurs according to the above quote in the OPs opening statement.
Males do not make decisions, females do.
Becoming high rank within the church heirarchy (and thus able to give orders) cannot be done if one is male.
That is both oppression and elitism based on gender.
What if the male in question is already the most well adjusted as both a person and a potential cleric of high rank?
According to them, one would still have to become a female.
Thus, according to them, it doesnt matter how good a person is, or well adjusted to becoming a priest they are.
Being male is unacceptable at that level.
Thats biased against a gender.
If this is truly canon, then Eilistraee is not very wise at all and isnt as far from Lolth as some people would believe.
Males do not make decisions, females do.
Becoming high rank within the church heirarchy (and thus able to give orders) cannot be done if one is male.
That is both oppression and elitism based on gender.
What if the male in question is already the most well adjusted as both a person and a potential cleric of high rank?
According to them, one would still have to become a female.
Thus, according to them, it doesnt matter how good a person is, or well adjusted to becoming a priest they are.
Being male is unacceptable at that level.
Thats biased against a gender.
If this is truly canon, then Eilistraee is not very wise at all and isnt as far from Lolth as some people would believe.
-
Bhaern Quel
- Demigod
- Posts: 2106
- Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:32 pm
[quote="Tsa'drin":1kd2cdcm]Taking orders from females still occurs according to the above quote in the OPs opening statement.[/quote:1kd2cdcm]
Hi there, Welcome to the Chosen.
Perhaps some history might help, but let me clear up one thing. THO is not Ed Greenwoods wife, she is one the the Knights that has roleplayed in his games for years.
History lesson.
Ed started to develope the Realms before D&D exisited in any form.
Once AD&D came along he adopted many of the rules and started to submit articles to TSR's magizines.
Some time after that TSR purchased the Realms from Ed with an interesting contract. What Ed says is canon unless TSR prints something different under the FR Logo. You might notice that in one of Ed's peply Eilistraee now acepts other races, 2nd Edition in fact acepted other races 10 or 15 years ago.
At one point in time Ed was told to make a good Drow deity, perhaps near the time RAS offered his good Drow.
During that time of D&D the prevailing view was that Elven Clerics were female (Yes I know Lolth did not follow that policy, but what do you expect of Evil and males were never allowed to advance too much) so there was a guideline of female only.
When 3rd came out there appeared either though print error or intent that male clerics were permitted. Debates have raged over this for years.
Ed's recent reply is his interpertation of how male Cleics fit into the reliion. It clearly is not prefect and many of us did not like it. For now it however is canon. A Cleric of the Dark Maiden must undergo change dance, at least once wearing the body of a female for perhaps a day or two. The charngedance never needs to be done again, though his clerical sisters would tend not to respect as much compared to others that changedance more often.
We in general we do not like the concept at all, but this is the best canon we have right now. I know many in fact discarded female only rule in 2nd Edition and you clearly have that right as well. What Ed says or WotC for that matter says is the basic guides to their vision. It is their interpertation, others clearly do not agree with the interpertation.
What you have before you is to decide if you will be bound by canon or bring your own interpertation as many of us have already done.
Hi there, Welcome to the Chosen.
Perhaps some history might help, but let me clear up one thing. THO is not Ed Greenwoods wife, she is one the the Knights that has roleplayed in his games for years.
History lesson.
Ed started to develope the Realms before D&D exisited in any form.
Once AD&D came along he adopted many of the rules and started to submit articles to TSR's magizines.
Some time after that TSR purchased the Realms from Ed with an interesting contract. What Ed says is canon unless TSR prints something different under the FR Logo. You might notice that in one of Ed's peply Eilistraee now acepts other races, 2nd Edition in fact acepted other races 10 or 15 years ago.
At one point in time Ed was told to make a good Drow deity, perhaps near the time RAS offered his good Drow.
During that time of D&D the prevailing view was that Elven Clerics were female (Yes I know Lolth did not follow that policy, but what do you expect of Evil and males were never allowed to advance too much) so there was a guideline of female only.
When 3rd came out there appeared either though print error or intent that male clerics were permitted. Debates have raged over this for years.
Ed's recent reply is his interpertation of how male Cleics fit into the reliion. It clearly is not prefect and many of us did not like it. For now it however is canon. A Cleric of the Dark Maiden must undergo change dance, at least once wearing the body of a female for perhaps a day or two. The charngedance never needs to be done again, though his clerical sisters would tend not to respect as much compared to others that changedance more often.
We in general we do not like the concept at all, but this is the best canon we have right now. I know many in fact discarded female only rule in 2nd Edition and you clearly have that right as well. What Ed says or WotC for that matter says is the basic guides to their vision. It is their interpertation, others clearly do not agree with the interpertation.
What you have before you is to decide if you will be bound by canon or bring your own interpertation as many of us have already done.
-
Shir'le E. Illios
- High Priestess
- Posts: 2352
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:51 pm
- Location: Eilistraee.com
- Contact:
[quote="Bhaern Quel":2i6ur1r3]THO is not Ed Greenwoods wife, she is one the the Knights that has roleplayed in his games for years.[/quote:2i6ur1r3]
Ah, my misunderstanding then.
As to the discussion... is there inequality? Yes, there is. But it isn't inequality because that's how Eilistraee wants it to be, it is inequality coming from the clergy. It seems to me that Eilistraee is just trying to slowly bridge the gap by saying to the males "you can become my priests" and saying to the females "when they spend some time as a woman", trying to bring them closer together like that.
And though they probably wouldn't agree if you asked them I think that's just as much for the benefit of the males as the females. After all, they're largely used to being oppressed and treated as second-class citizens and though the desire not to be that might be strong, usually the reality isn't quite as easy (a bird in a cage might desire to be free, but does it have the skills to survive on its own).
Change doesn't come easy. Despite our modern views on freedom and liberty you can't just overnight change from an oppressive society to a completely equal one no matter how much one might want to. That isn't putting people into an elite group or anything, because the groups already exist.
That doesn't mean that males are oppressed, not at all. Any drow (or otherwise), male or female, enjoys a lot more freedom and equality and such under Eilistraee than they can ever hope to achieve under Lolth. I would even go so far as to say more so than they can expect under Vhaeraun, though it probably is just a different kind of freedom.
Would I like to see Eilistraeen society be completely equal? Yes... probably (I admit that I [i:2i6ur1r3]like[/i:2i6ur1r3] the feminine aspect of her religion, the mother goddess and wouldn't want to see her lose that). But that doesn't mean that it is as easy as that.
Try and move away from your modern-day preconceptions and try and look at it in light of the Forgotten Realms universe.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
Ah, my misunderstanding then.
As to the discussion... is there inequality? Yes, there is. But it isn't inequality because that's how Eilistraee wants it to be, it is inequality coming from the clergy. It seems to me that Eilistraee is just trying to slowly bridge the gap by saying to the males "you can become my priests" and saying to the females "when they spend some time as a woman", trying to bring them closer together like that.
And though they probably wouldn't agree if you asked them I think that's just as much for the benefit of the males as the females. After all, they're largely used to being oppressed and treated as second-class citizens and though the desire not to be that might be strong, usually the reality isn't quite as easy (a bird in a cage might desire to be free, but does it have the skills to survive on its own).
Change doesn't come easy. Despite our modern views on freedom and liberty you can't just overnight change from an oppressive society to a completely equal one no matter how much one might want to. That isn't putting people into an elite group or anything, because the groups already exist.
That doesn't mean that males are oppressed, not at all. Any drow (or otherwise), male or female, enjoys a lot more freedom and equality and such under Eilistraee than they can ever hope to achieve under Lolth. I would even go so far as to say more so than they can expect under Vhaeraun, though it probably is just a different kind of freedom.
Would I like to see Eilistraeen society be completely equal? Yes... probably (I admit that I [i:2i6ur1r3]like[/i:2i6ur1r3] the feminine aspect of her religion, the mother goddess and wouldn't want to see her lose that). But that doesn't mean that it is as easy as that.
Try and move away from your modern-day preconceptions and try and look at it in light of the Forgotten Realms universe.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
Chosen of Eilistraee
-
Narsia Ny'Dhun
- Resident
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:51 pm
- Contact:
Shir'le makes a good point.
You can't really judge her based on a modern perspective because these fantasy settings never evolved past the feudal era of western Europe where things were a LOT different than they are today.
Given that it feels, to me, that trying to apply modern stadards to a non-modern situation is asking way too much.
You can't really judge her based on a modern perspective because these fantasy settings never evolved past the feudal era of western Europe where things were a LOT different than they are today.
Given that it feels, to me, that trying to apply modern stadards to a non-modern situation is asking way too much.
Harl l'drathir udos alure, Eilistraee lu'Anixiel ulu kyorl udossa zuch
-
Unen_Stealthfoot
- Legend
- Posts: 1567
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:51 am
[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":3idnw4oe]
Change doesn't come easy... ...you can't just overnight change from an oppressive society to a completely equal one no matter how much one might want to...
Shir'le[/quote:3idnw4oe]
*SPOILERS*
[color=indigo:3idnw4oe]Unless, of course, you have a sudden merging of two churches, say Vhaeraunites and Eilistraeens.
(seriously) Although, there are now sort of two different sects, the male ex-Vhaeraunites and the female Eilistraeens. *eyeroll* I swear, Ms. Smedman is really starting to annoy.[/color:3idnw4oe]
Change doesn't come easy... ...you can't just overnight change from an oppressive society to a completely equal one no matter how much one might want to...
Shir'le[/quote:3idnw4oe]
*SPOILERS*
[color=indigo:3idnw4oe]Unless, of course, you have a sudden merging of two churches, say Vhaeraunites and Eilistraeens.
(seriously) Although, there are now sort of two different sects, the male ex-Vhaeraunites and the female Eilistraeens. *eyeroll* I swear, Ms. Smedman is really starting to annoy.[/color:3idnw4oe]
Life before death
Strength before weakness
Journey before destination
Strength before weakness
Journey before destination
-
Bhaern Quel
- Demigod
- Posts: 2106
- Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:32 pm
[quote="Unen_Stealthfoot":2iddoml5] I swear, Ms. Smedman is really starting to annoy.[/quote:2iddoml5]
She could be restricted in how the story goes. Paul Kemp had limits imposed on how to end the War of the Spider Queen.
On the otherhand, I still was not happy she got the trilogy because of the way she messed up the High Hunt. The one great hope was that admiting an error that she would have gotten a better sense of the religion and majot NPCs, killing the Crones out of hand does not strike me something Qilué or most Priestess would order after combat was over .
She could be restricted in how the story goes. Paul Kemp had limits imposed on how to end the War of the Spider Queen.
On the otherhand, I still was not happy she got the trilogy because of the way she messed up the High Hunt. The one great hope was that admiting an error that she would have gotten a better sense of the religion and majot NPCs, killing the Crones out of hand does not strike me something Qilué or most Priestess would order after combat was over .
-
Narsia Ny'Dhun
- Resident
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:51 pm
- Contact:
It struck me as out of character as well, though if Lisa isn't just a bad portrayer of the characters I'd guess that she's touching on the change in Eilistraee after absorbing her brother's power and thus a change in those closest to her such as Qilué and other high priestesses. Course this is just a guess, and I hope I'm wrong. I wouldn't like the idea of Eilistraee thinking of anyone as beyond salvation.
Harl l'drathir udos alure, Eilistraee lu'Anixiel ulu kyorl udossa zuch
-
Unen_Stealthfoot
- Legend
- Posts: 1567
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:51 am
-
Bhaern Quel
- Demigod
- Posts: 2106
- Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:32 pm
-
Unen_Stealthfoot
- Legend
- Posts: 1567
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:51 am
[color=indigo:2d617myr]So only some of the crones were undead??? Because I'm sure it stated somewhere that at least the one that the nightshadow impersonated was undead.???[/color:2d617myr]-
Bhaern Quel
- Demigod
- Posts: 2106
- Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:32 pm
[quote="Unen_Stealthfoot":2n06nio3]:? [color=indigo:2n06nio3]So only some of the crones were undead??? Because I'm sure it stated somewhere that at least the one that the nightshadow impersonated was undead.???[/color:2n06nio3][/quote:2n06nio3]
*shrug* Nightshadow appears to be a follower of the Masked Lady and not undead. Though not sure, I do not have book in hand.
Nightshades are undead, if that was what you meant, and one might have been pertending to be a crone or used to be a crone.
*shrug* Nightshadow appears to be a follower of the Masked Lady and not undead. Though not sure, I do not have book in hand.
Nightshades are undead, if that was what you meant, and one might have been pertending to be a crone or used to be a crone.
-
Unen_Stealthfoot
- Legend
- Posts: 1567
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:51 am