It comes in two parts and here they are in full (I just added some linebreaks for easy reading):
[quote="Ed Greenwood":3uw1pxbd]It is true that for some decades in the Realms (the time covered by the Realms boxed sets of both the 1st and 2nd Edition) there were apparently no male clerics of Lolth and no male clerics of Eilistraee, and no non-drow clergy of either goddess.
However, matters have changed.
Some (not all!) priestesses of Eilistraee believe the Dancer is worried about something dark she’s foreseen. Others disagree - - but all admit the Goddess has, for reasons she’s not divulged, changed the directives she gives her clergy and lay worshippers, to become far more inclusive.
For one thing, the “dream visions” she’s sent to senior established clergy have begun to direct them to accept both males and individuals of many races into the ranks of her clergy. (So, yes, Kentinal, a goblin priestess, gnome priestess, silver dragon, hill giants, and male priests of all stripes now ARE possible. We still don’t know [not being able to personally quiz Eilistraee] if there are any races that remain unacceptable as her clergy, but whereas before the answer was: all of them except drow, and female drow at that, the answer now is: possibly; all certainty is gone.) There are even apparently lycanthropes and shapechanging races among the clergy of Eilistraee.
Yes, you heard me right: there now ARE a few males among her church, but to enter it they have all “Danced The Changedance” and spent time as female, just as Mystra caused Elminster to spend time as Elmara - - and for the same reasons: greater understanding and sensitivity of “the life of the other gender.” One cannot truly feel the Divine Dance of Eilistraee PROPERLY except as a female, and so her (still very rare, few, and generally secretive about it) male priests must spend some time as a female (not just for the duration of a ritual, but they must do some everyday living as a female). The most accomplished drow, elf, half-elf, and human male priests seem to feel the need to take female form for some days every few years or so (if they wish to “cleave more fully to the Goddess” and thus rise in levels), and most spend longer and longer times in female form. Not all female priests of the Goddess fully trust the males, and they don’t tend to rise much in the church hierarchy (no matter what character levels they achieve).
More than that, many drow priestesses of Eilistraee are unhappy about this, and may prove hostile (not to the point of violence or refusal to accept or aid, but with a coldness in manner and a wary “always watching over” any males, until they achieve acceptance on a personal level [e.g. “I still don’t hold with allowing males - - males! - - to join the dances, but Elorand can be trusted; he’s proven himself over and over, and don’t think we haven’t tested him. Other males, I still don’t trust!”). Eilistraee has always had enough personal contact with her clergy that none of them would think of disbelieving that she truly means this “new way” to occur and to be followed - - and no established priestess of Eilistraee will renounce this new order, either. (“Reluctantly accepting and unhappily coping” is a good description of their state; “defying the goddess and rejecting males or trying to trick or lead them into fatal mishaps so we can be rid of them” would NOT be an accurate characterization.)
There wasn’t a single date or clear moment when the acceptance of males and non-drow began; it seems to have been slowly and almost secretively occurring over a decade or so. However, as of 1373 DR, “everyone” among the clergy of Eilistraee now seems to be aware of it.
Zandilar, Eilistraee has always gained converts and made herself known to drow through dream-visions and personal appearances (usually dancing in moonlit woods). Many, many drow long to return to the surface and live among trees (it’s a race instinct, that some recognize for what it is - - whereas other drow just feel always unsettled and edgy, and usually turn this into fighting amongst themselves, and family and/or trading rivalries), and Eilistraee has far more worshippers than the drow who dwell under the firm influence of Vhaeraun or Lolth (who is by far the most powerful of drow deities) would have one believe. I’d say a little more than 22% or so of all drow in Faerûn worship Eilistraee - - although I must again remind scribes to set aside any modern monotheistic thinking: in the Realms, the vast majority of intelligent beings worship many or at least several gods, NOT just one. It’s not easy to truly believe in and worship Lolth and any other drow deity, but a particular drow individual COULD venerate both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (though they’d serve neither well, in trying to follow or honour both). Drow who ONLY worship Eilistraee are almost entirely her clergy, and are probably between 10 and 12 percent of all drow.
(I would echo Zanan in ranking the “popularity” of drow deities as: Lolth by a long shot, then Vhaeraun, but thereafter I would put Eilistraee ahead of Selvetarm, and Ghaundaur last of all. As of this moment, that is; faiths and their deities rise and fall over time, and right now Lolth is the only one I would bet on being around in the far future, if one purely considers divine power. Faraer is quite correct, however, to remind us that “worship isn’t the sole determinant of godly might, or Waukeen would be far greater than Mystra and Shar.” Wooly Rupert is also dead-on when he observed “If Lolth had her way, there would be no drow pantheon - - just her.”)
Every drow who sets out on an expedition to the surface, to raid, gets “tempted by Eilistraee in their dreams” (visions sent into their minds, whether they’re asleep, in Reverie, lying wounded or bored, singing or otherwise concentrating on something, or daydreaming alone or working on some repetitive task like painting or weaving). She also sends visions, in exactly the same manner, to drow who never go near the surface.
Many drow literally don’t understand the visions; they feel but don’t “feel” the Goddess. Others find Her troubling, or reject Her - - but about a quarter of all drow yearn for what she shows them. They may never do anything about it, or may never seek Her or Her worship, but they certainly feel Her.
So almost all drow learn of Eilistraee’s existence, and even receive a true picture of what it is (Lolth can’t stop that, because she too uses the dream-vision approach, and to try to block others from using it would rob her lay worshippers of much sanity, her priestesses of much daily control over those lay worshippers, and herself of much control over her priestesses). Not all that many reject Lolth and cleave to Eilistraee, but many secretly yearn (meaning they might spare a stricken worshipper of Eilistraee if they think no priestess is watching, or fail to pass on to other drow something they may have seen of the activities of faithful of Eilistraee, or stop to watch a dance of Eilistraee worshippers rather than disrupting it).
As for which pantheon Eilistraee belongs to: pantheons are a purely mortal frame of reference, or way of classifying and speaking of divine beings they can never wholly understand. Eilistraee clearly began as, and primarily remains, a drow deity - - but has exiled herself from the formal company of all other deities (though she’s friendly to Selune and Mielikki, and at least polite to all of the major surface elven deities).
No mortal can be certain why Eilistraee is now embracing males and non-drow as worshippers, but we do know it’s been going on for some time, and is now openly Her policy (NO clergy of Eilistraee can fool themselves into passing this off as an idea promoted by this or that high-ranking priestess; they KNOW the Goddess Herself is promoting this). There are still certain church “offices” (Sword Dancers and other prestige classes) that seem restricted to females only, but this may only appear to be the case because no males have yet attained those offices - - we literally no longer know if there’s a divine prohibition.[/quote:3uw1pxbd]
[quote="Ed Greenwood":3uw1pxbd]In reply to RevJest’s Jan06 query: “Ed, I would be interested in anything you might wish to say concerning the social order amongst the faithful of Eilistraee. Do they marry? Specifically, what role do males play in Eilistreean communities / households?” let me say this:
I define “faithful” as individuals who most strongly identify with, and believe in, Eilistraee. Lay worshippers, in other words, rather than just clergy (and clergy-in-training or wannabe clergy). There is no Eilistreean prohibition on marriage (or sex) among either lay worshippers or clergy, and never has been. There are many female drow clerics who prefer to remain single, either because a lesbian or other facet of their personalities makes them most comfortable being partner-less (as opposed to having a steady partner of either gender), or because they see married life as a distraction (or time-stealer) from their whole-hearted devotion to the Goddess. Eilistraee has never deemed either married or single worshippers as “preferred,” and has never regarded (as far as mortals know) either sort of worshipper as disfavoured or second in rank behind the other sort of worshipper.
Except among clergy dwelling together in a temple (or forest “temple” community; I’m not speaking here of holy buildings or even a fixed worship site), I don’t think there are any such things as “Eilistreean communities.” (Remember, individuals in the Realms worship an array of gods, not a single deity.) Eilistreean-DOMINATED communities and Eilistreean households, yes. In all of those, females tend to govern (formally make decisions and be consulted in decision-making as the individuals with most social “weight” and influence), involving males primarily as “spot experts” (e.g. “You saw the attack, Phaerold, so tell us - -” and “You’ve dealt with that human more than the rest of us, Phaerold; please give us your opinion as to - - “) Males tend to be daily-bread-winning workers, guards and warriors, and have tasks related to their generally superior physical strength. They do not tend to be supervisors and high-ranking decision-makers. (Please note the word “tend.” I’m speaking in gross generalizations here, not of “a rule that holds true in all cases.”) Many males - - even clerics of Eilistraee - - become spies, scouts, patrolling guards, or leaders of lawkeeping or defensive military forces for Eilistreean-dominated communities or Eilistreean-dedicated holy communities. (To answer Kentinal’s Jan06 query: “Some wonder how Eilistraee reacts to Wizards as followers as there has been little mention of Eilistraee following mages and the one of note is female, where do males fit in?” I can add that male wizards (of any race) accepted as worshippers of Eilistraee also serve in such capacities (and as “resident experts in arcane magic”).
Kentinal also asked: “It has been said the Eilistraee societies there is gender equality, and it appears reasonable that they do not take slaves. Some argue that such communities are Cleric dominated, they rule perhaps?”
Yes, Eilistraee forbids the taking of slaves. Prisoners of war can be made to work in return for their food and shelter, but they are not “property” and cannot be ordered around by anyone: only by supervisors assigned by the decision-makers among the Dark Dancer’s worshippers. (Such cases are rare, and generally consist of Lolth-worshipping drow or beings of other races who have “learned too much” and so are being detained for a few months, to prevent the specialized knowledge they’ve gained from being brought to enemies of the Eilistraeens.
As I noted above, one can only speak of “Eilistraee societies” if they are clerical communities. Scribes must try to set aside real-world monotheistic views of settlements or lands or racial groupings that only venerate one god: in the Realms, beings believe in, and worship (or at least try to appease, through worship) many, many gods. Far too much of the discussion here and elsewhere betrays thinking that “this family or group of [fill in race] worships Deity X, whereas these over here worship Deity Y.” Please, when dealing with the Realms, move away from that viewpoint, and reflect that any family with children old enough to think for themselves and express those opinions will likely include family members who choose different (or no!) primary deity, and “weight” their personal worship of the mix of deities differently from fellow family members.
Kentinal also posted: “Another question came up in another place that asked if Monks would take Eilistraee as a Patron deity?”
Yes, monks (of any race) can revere Eilistraee as their patron, but very few do. Just as a drow ranger could turn to Mielikki. Neither case is likely to be numerous or popular; we’re talking of handfuls of individuals, not a groundswell of hitherto-neglected-by-the-rules thousands of folk.
And to Kentinal’s “In past answers it is clear that followers are located thoughout the regions, some even in "Drow free" zones like Waterdeep and Silvermoon (disguised of course, most likely as fair elves) and there are followers of other races as well. Are there any estimates as to how far and how many races do take Eilistraree as a Patron deity?” I reply: yes, those who “look to Eilistraee first” are found all over Faerûn, and can be of almost any race. (However, the great majority of Eilistraeens are surface-dwelling female drow, who usually make their homes in wooded wilderlands.)
Kentinal also asked: “If the High Hunt is always the End of the month? (I have played it as when an evil dangerous creature came near enough for the Goddess to call out alarm). How long does a Run last?”
The High Hunt is celebrated as a ritual at least once a season (once each summer, and once each winter). One may also be mustered whenever senior clergy of Eilistraee deem it needful, which means whenever the Dark Maiden sends them dream-vision warnings or urgings to do so. What triggers her to do so isn’t known, other than yes, causes of such urgings often seem to include the alert, armed approach of large and powerful foes of Eilistraeens (or marauding monsters) to Eilistraeen rituals, places of worship, and Eilistraeens engaged in the work of the Goddess. A Run usually lasts a month to a month and a half, but sometimes for a season or an entire year (longer Runs, unless the participating beings are detained or severely wounded, are rare).
Back in Dec05, bearsden asked: “I would like to know the role of male Eilistraeen worshipers in Eilistraeen rituals. Do the males participate? Are the males excluded from any? Any insight into these questions would help me out immensely. Thanks in advance for your time and help.”
Yes, males participate in almost all rituals, as lay worshippers (as Zandilar quite correctly pointed out). This includes the High Hunt, the Run, and the Circle of Song. Yes, there are rituals that males are excluded from, AS MALES (such as almost all of the longer, more passionate dances). However, increasingly males openly plead with Eilistraeen priestesses to be magically shapechanged so as to take part in such rituals, and the priestesses (if they have the means to do so), oblige them (sometimes the change is brief and temporary, fading out as the ritual ends, and sometimes it lasts for days or much longer, while the shapechanged being undertakes a service for the clergy).
However, The Sage was also correct when he posted “Males do not have a specific place in Eilistraee's clergy.” That is, males aren’t given roles in rituals or in the church hierarchy because they are males. They are blocked from serving in some rituals and church positions because of their gender, but that’s a different thing. Most males step into roles in rituals, and rankings among Eilistraeen clergy, as if they were novice or inexperienced females. They may not advance up and out of those roles and rankings because they are males, but even this isn’t a “rule.” Some males have advanced on their own merits or because Eilistraee has favoured them to others in dream-visions or because they have chosen to remain (or beg to remain) in female form, and this choice has been admired by female clergy as a mark of dedication.
It is true that many long-standing female clerics of Eilistraee are very suspicious of males (and usually see males who take and keep female shape as power-hungry individuals who will “stop at nothing” to rise in the ranks). This means they watch (and instruct) these males VERY closely, and may even devise tasks for them that are both tests and designed to “break male spirit” and cause the changed males to cleave to increasingly female points of view (for example, they might order a changed male to serve under, or take a day job working under, a chauvinistic and authoritatian male).
However, these gender matters can be overstated and overemphasized. On the whole, all clergy of the Dark Maiden welcome an increase in worshippers of the Goddess, and the fellowship (and working with) more and more Servants of the Dark Dancer.
Specific in-ritual roles of “unchanged” males include dancing, singing, having spells cast ON THEM as part of rituals, taking part in collective spellcastings led by female clergy, intoning prayers in unison and responsively with other devout of Eilistraee, and in the tending of fires, braziers, drawn barriers, vestments and tools handed to or taken from, and used by, female worshippers, and so on. Nothing stops anyone, of any race or gender, praying to Eilistraee, including dancing and singing prayers - - and NO clergy of the Dark Maiden would frown on a male exhibiting such behaviour except when they thought it was being done to deliberately disrupt a larger ritual. Many males who worship the Dark Dancer find a moonlit wooded place, pray to Eilistraee to notice and smile upon them, and then disrobe and dance as they sing a deeper prayer (of thanks, and for guidance). Some human hunters who aren’t drow or elves, and otherwise have nothing to do with such folk do this, and may dance around a silver bastard sword, and even (when the moon is full) sacrifice live-captured animals they’ve hunted down with a silver bastard sword. Others gash themselves with the sword while dancing around it, either in lieu of an offering or as well as an offering, as a mark of devotion. Such dances are sometimes undertaken by several males as part of a larger ritual led by female clergy, who heal the males as they wound themselves (and go on dancing and singing).
In short, things are changing among those who worship the Lady of the Dance. Recently, she has taken to manifesting (as a lure to non-believers, or a signal to her faithful) as a handful of dancing moonbeams or moon-motes, that play about a favoured person or an item she wants handled or attention paid to - - or that move about in a way that guides those who see this manifestation.[/quote:3uw1pxbd]
The Hooded One concluded with the following remark: “So saith Ed. Who I know would like to say more, but future plans (and NDAs) prevent. I hope this has helped to answer some long-standing questions; I KNOW, dedicated scribes being dedicated scribes, that it will spark new ones.”
Overall some [i:3uw1pxbd]very[/i:3uw1pxbd] interesting stuff there. So it’s definite now that Eilistraee [i:3uw1pxbd]does[/i:3uw1pxbd] accept (and have) male clerics (“Danced the Changedance”? Interesting…) Also the number of worshippers (and most of all clergy!) he described regarding Eilistraee are [i:3uw1pxbd]much[/i:3uw1pxbd] higher than even we suspected. Between 10% and 12% of all drow only worship Eilistraee (most of them being her clergy)? Wow!
I’m not completely certain yet what to think of there clearly not being any direct equality of gender in Eilistraeen society. As I’ve theorized before regarding male clerics this could simply be something part of the drow (and Eilistraeens) being stubborn and stuck in ‘Lolthian’ thinking with Eilistraee really aiming for true equality (of both gender and race), but a lot of what he says also make it feel that there’s a very feminine aspect to her worship (or else males wouldn’t have to shapechange and wouldn’t do better if they do so regularly).
Also very interesting it the last remark that there are apparently future plans for the goddess and it’s anyone’s guess what that means or might be.
Thanks Bhaern for letting us known and thanks Ed for the enlightenment.
[EDIT Nov 13 2006]
Thanks again to Bhaern the following update from Ed (on the Candlekeep forums):
[quote="Ed Greenwood":3uw1pxbd]Hi again, all. This time Ed tackles RevJest’s recent followup query to Ed’s Eilistraee lore-replies: “I am aware that the Realms are polytheistic. I just don't know what other gods a drow elf who worships Eilistraee would pray to? While I can understand humans trying to appease evil nature deities such as Umberlee and Talos, I don't understand why a drow who worships Eilistraee would pray to any other drow god given their dispositions. I can understand a drow elven wizard praying to Mystra, or even Azuth. Assuming they were familiar enough with their faiths. But who else? Would goodly drow worship the Seldarine? Would the members of the Seldarine ever respond to a drow?
That's where I'm confused. The polytheism in general in the Realms isn't confusing to me. It's the idea of polytheism in this unique circumstance. ie. What other gods can/do good drow elves turn to?”
Sian weighed in with: “hmm ... as far i'm aware then, if the drow proves themself the seldarine would respond”
and Faraer added: “RevJest, Checking Demihuman Deities, we see that most of the drow pantheon are Eilistraee's foes, so they aren't likely candidates for worship. Her listed allies are: Callarduaran Smoothhands, Haela Brightaxe, Lurue, Mystra, the Seldarine, Selûne. Elven and Faerûn gods that they come across on the surface. But I imagine, given her mythology of rescue, Eilistraee is a larger presence than usual in her worshippers' religious consciousness.”
Ed replies:
RevJest, Sian’s right, and Faraer nailed it. Eilistraee does loom foremost in the minds of most of her faithful (and of the drow gods, sometimes they “appease worship” Vhaeraun if they dwell in settled areas and are trying to find a secluded moonlit place [rooftop, interior courtyard, walled garden] to worship Eilistraee). In general, the most popular other deities for Eilistraee’s faithful to worship (listed in order of diminishing ppopularity, most to least) are Selûne, Lurue, Mystra, Milil, the Seldarine, Lliira, Eldath, and even Sharess. Followed by Callarduaran Smoothhands, Haela Brightaxe, and other human deities as individual preferences and situations suggest.
So saith Ed. Who’s done his share of naked dancing in the moonlight, down the years (though when I teased him about it, he said, “These days, if we danced together under the moon, it’d be more like you dancing around this shuffling, hairy, moonlit blimp”). Ahem.
love to all,
THO[/quote:3uw1pxbd]
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
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