Ed Greenwood Talks About Eilistraee

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Tsa'drin
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Post by Tsa'drin »

[quote:2vv2mcul]
As to the discussion... is there inequality? Yes, there is. But it isn't inequality because that's how Eilistraee wants it to be, it is inequality coming from the clergy. [/quote:2vv2mcul]

Not quite true, if Eilistraee wanted some sort of equality, she would command it done. Her silence must mean she's ok with males being treated as 'lessers'. Since I've been asked to use Forgotten Realms references, I will. This sort of thing has happened among FR clergy of different faiths (god commanding something be done, whatever it is), why not here? Evidense would suggest that it is for some peronsal quest on the part of the one who wrote this claim, and not something true to the Goddess herself...in other words, contradiction. Those of Eilistraees clergy would heed her command if they were supposedly enlightened would realise the wisdom of a command of equality (which seemed to be there in the first place, but recent claims say it isnt so). Becoming a woman does nothing for a person who has no empathy in the first place. As I've already shown and studies bare out the fact: males and females alike can both be equally unfeeling.

The only reason to make a male become female then; is the reason of "dont like Males".

[quote:2vv2mcul]
Would I like to see Eilistraeen society be completely equal? Yes... probably (I admit that I [i:2vv2mcul]like[/i:2vv2mcul] the feminine aspect of her religion, the mother goddess and wouldn't want to see her lose that). But that doesn't mean that it is as easy as that.[/quote:2vv2mcul]

I firmly agree with you here.

[quote:2vv2mcul]
Try and move away from your modern-day preconceptions and try and look at it in light of the Forgotten Realms universe.[/quote:2vv2mcul]

Modern day perceptions? Hardly my dear. Liberty and freedom are always wanted no matter the society or time.

Spartacus, Frederik Douglas, Willaim Wallace...I can keep naming people, but whats the point?

I can name events: The American Revolution, The French Revolution, The Goth Uprising...Again, I can name plenty more.

These above mentioned events and people come from varying times and all have a common theme: The desired freedom and equality.

In Short: Proof shows that any oppressed group will eventually rise against their oppressors. This is not what I think Eilistraee is about...nor should she be.

Currently, whoever is writing for her is shoehorning her into a role that not only doesn't fit her, but goes against everything she stands for.

Do you see what I am saying? I am saying that these writers should not put us, the fans, in a place where our suspension of disbelief is shattered. If one group oppresses another, they will be risen against (no matter how small or large the uprising, it could be peaceful like Ghandi, or violent like the Mamluks).

I am saying Eilistraee would never let it get anywhere near that point at all. She wouldnt require her followers to become something they arent. It was they themselves who freely came to her as they are...why would she want to change something so fundamental about a person if they are already suited to worship her?

It just doesnt make sense as these writers have portrayed. As another poster wrote here, and I am paraphrasing: we should take what we like out of this, and dump what we dont like.

That sounds great to me. To me, Eilistraee is very wise and wouldnt require any change from anyone who came to her with a true heart in worship of her, and no one has less value because of their gender. Ability, and ability alone would dictate how high one can go.
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Post by Argoth »

Why didn't Our Maiden order total equallity ? Lemme see... Maybe it's becouse SHE's the goddess. And we are the FOLLOWERS. And we should at least want to please her, do as she wishes. If we are trully devoted to her, we seek true wisdom in her doing. If we love her, we do it every time all over again, becouse we want to stick with her. Why love her? Maybe becouse she's the one ray of moonlight that shines through her followers to enlight the path out of the Underdark and to true freedom? And thus give us a different kind of power, one that is not all about arms, or magic, the one that gives the drow the peace they long for. Like Ed said (and he is like the pope speaking ex cathedra to catholics) all drow sence this longing. That's why the Lady needs us.

Another thing, like the High Priestess said before, and what had been somewhere else in this sacret place spoken out, she would actually lose most of her followers, if she simply ordered total equality. It's not that males are "born" to be of second cathegory. It's the hole sociaty that makes a scheme of males being treated like that. They are supposed to be equal, but they also must learn, that something as radical of an aproach as total gender (GENDER, a larger word then sex) equality is not to be made just like that. It must be made slowly, so that everyone may rise to the chalange of changing this point of view. 10% of all drow follow the Dark Maiden. But they are still drow. Brought up in Lolthian sociaty. They have it coded too deep in them. It takes time.

Furthermore, the change occurs. But one must look at the goddess' perspective. Her essence is somehow eternal. And that's a long time for making any changes.

Personally I have absolutely nothing against the Changedance tradition and (I think) I understand the idea, the need for a male to become female, becouse his goddess is female and that leads to even more empathy (the goddess is a mother to her followers, and priests and priestesses must have some of her caring parent traits).

I think that's it. And welcome to this place traveler.
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Post by Unen_Stealthfoot »

[color=indigo:2had0aq6]Also, the IG world is completely incomparable to the RW. Therefore you can't say, well, this is how we do it, and these ideas have been around for centuries, millenia, etc. RL and IG have inherently different basic principles (like magic) and thus, comparing them is (pardon the trite phrase) like to comparing apples and oranges.[/color:2had0aq6]
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Tsa'drin
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Post by Tsa'drin »

[quote:o4r8umza]Why didn't Our Maiden order total equallity ? Lemme see... Maybe it's becouse SHE's the goddess. And we are the FOLLOWERS.[/quote:o4r8umza]

Read my earlier statement, what you are portraying here is exactly as I said: Lolth light.

[quote:o4r8umza]It's not that males are "born" to be of second cathegory. It's the hole sociaty that makes a scheme of males being treated like that. They are supposed to be equal, but they also must learn, that something as radical of an aproach as total gender (GENDER, a larger word then sex) equality is not to be made just like that.[/quote:o4r8umza]

Hmm, quite odd...since many of the followers she gets arent drow...and they come from societies that ARE equal...why does she step backwards towards Lolths way of thinking in this? Why would a human male have to go through such a dance when he already has such empathy and understanding?

The answer is: Pandering.


[quote:o4r8umza] Personally I have absolutely nothing against the Changedance tradition and (I think) I understand the idea, the need for a male to become female, becouse his goddess is female and that leads to even more empathy (the goddess is a mother to her followers, and priests and priestesses must have some of her caring parent traits).[/quote:o4r8umza]

What you imply here is that males cannot have as much empathy as a female (untrue), and that fathers cannot have the same amount of caring a mother can as a parent (also untrue).


[quote:o4r8umza]I think that's it. And welcome to this place traveler.[/quote:o4r8umza]

Thanks for the welcome.
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Post by Tsa'drin »

[quote="Unen_Stealthfoot":2sadym7n][color=indigo:2sadym7n]Also, the IG world is completely incomparable to the RW. Therefore you can't say, well, this is how we do it, and these ideas have been around for centuries, millenia, etc. RL and IG have inherently different basic principles (like magic) and thus, comparing them is (pardon the trite phrase) like to comparing apples and oranges.[/color:2sadym7n][/quote:2sadym7n]

I wrote those things in response to another person, it was not I who originally brought it up.

Saying that IG and RW are -completely- incomparible...

Thats a bit over the top I would say. There is more in common with the IG and RW then many people give credit for.

If you want to make a story believable, for instance: People should react realistically...not conveniently to fit into a nice little plot envelope. That makes for not only a bad story that is unrealistic, but makes the characters not only inplausible...but unbelievable...and worse: pandering.
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Post by Unen_Stealthfoot »

[color=indigo:3jm7weyr]I agree with that last bit, but there are still different morals, and basic principals.[/color:3jm7weyr]
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Post by Argoth »

Quote:
Why didn't Our Maiden order total equallity ? Lemme see... Maybe it's becouse SHE's the goddess. And we are the FOLLOWERS.

Read my earlier statement, what you are portraying here is exactly as I said: Lolth light.

It may be so, but it is not without right. She IS a deity in the end. I've said it just to state it's perfectly justified to be like this. Even with evil gods like Lolth. If you did want a deity that would on equal terms with you in any interaction (without involvement of blind obedience) you would have to be one of them. Obedience to a deity is part of worship to an extent. It's just the motivation of such that varies. O and there is a continuation to my statement you quoted. It's not to be read out of context, because it losses almost all of its true meaning. ;)

Quote:
It's not that males are "born" to be of second cathegory. It's the hole sociaty that makes a scheme of males being treated like that. They are supposed to be equal, but they also must learn, that something as radical of an aproach as total gender (GENDER, a larger word then sex) equality is not to be made just like that.


Hmm, quite odd...since many of the followers she gets arent drow...and they come from societies that ARE equal...why does she step backwards towards Lolths way of thinking in this? Why would a human male have to go through such a dance when he already has such empathy and understanding?

The answer is: Pandering.

I do not see that in such a way. I've talked only about drow in my post. I am proud of the drow and in a way a racist. I still find it hard to think that a goblin female would be more of a priestess then myself. But I don't give into doubt the reality as it is. Moreover I see it in a way like this: the Dark Maiden was (is) a drow deity in the beginning and I see that a lot of interest is directed to dark elves. That is why she keeps it this way, though she accepts many other races. She still wants the drow to accept this way of things. She wants THEM to cope with the idea of equality, as I understand it. Other races that have this social trait are just expected to be patient and learn their lesson, as it is a valuable one. It's just the inner motivation of finding it by your self, inside you, and adopting the teaching it carries.

Quote:
Personally I have absolutely nothing against the Changedance tradition and (I think) I understand the idea, the need for a male to become female, becouse his goddess is female and that leads to even more empathy (the goddess is a mother to her followers, and priests and priestesses must have some of her caring parent traits).


What you imply here is that males cannot have as much empathy as a female (untrue), and that fathers cannot have the same amount of caring a mother can as a parent (also untrue).

In my opinion and observation, mothers almost always are more caring. I did not imply fathers don't care at all. The care. But they care (love, or whatever feeling you want to talk about) because of something, while mothers just because (so to say). I know I would not be able to evoke the feelings a mother has for her children. It is even beyond my imagination. Notice I am not talking of these traits as either positive or negative. I don't grade them. And yes I think it's untrue that fathers may be as caring as mothers. Exceptions occur, sure, but they are not the rule. So don't catch my by the words. Notice also, that sometimes I may say something else I mean, simply because this is not my first language.

You're welcome for the welcome. ;) I hope you will find your way to the answers you are looking for, and that this place one day you will call home as I have done. :)
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Post by Sancha »

Personally, I think the only reason this 'Changedance' thing was introduced is because Gary Stu--er, I mean, Elminster, had to do it in the novel Ed wrote a few years ago.

But I have to agree with Tsa'drin, it totally flies in the face of all previously published canon material about the Dark Maiden and her faith.

And Ed seems to have a very bad or selective memory on many things.

I have a copy here of a sourcebook written by Ed Greenwood that's about 17 years old, where the Dark Maiden first appeared, and even in her very first write up it says that her followers are not limited to drow-only. It says she has many human and half elven lay worshippers. It DOES say that all her priestesses are female, but that they can be of ANY race, so long as they're female.

Quite the opposite of what he's saying recently, as quoted in this thread. He IS backpeddaling and retconning, and attempting to change the canon all willy-nilly.

I was always under the impression that her faith was primarily about tolerance and acceptance (from her Dogma, which says so), and this whole new concept of 'changedances' and the exclusion of males in worship and not being able to rise above low ranks in the clergy is an intolerant holdover from Llothian society, that really has no place in the Dark Maiden's faith.
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Post by Sancha »

Honestly, as someone who plays a Chosen of Vhaeraun, I wish Ed has said all this retconning stuff years ago. It would have been so much easier to recruit so many more drow males to serving the Shadow's Church if it was cannon years ago that males get treated like crap by Eilistraeens....
:devil:

I don't buy it though, and none of this intolerance to males or forcing them to undergoe Gary Stu's Changedance will appear in my gaming group's tabletop or online games. We'll stick with the Darkmaiden and her clergy being all about kindness, acceptance and tolerance.

I mean, if we don't disregard this in our games, who will there be to make us Vhaeraunite's actually look bad? We'd be heroes, instead of anti-heroes and sometimes even villains.... :P

I don't want things to be TOO easy for me or the other players. Realizing Vhaeraun's grand vision should be one hell of a challenge. Not a simple, 'Well, if you don't like the way those women are treating you, come join us. We believe in equality of the sexes, you know... Eilistraee is just Lolth Lite. Come try something new and different, that will actually set you free..."

lol
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Post by Xandurpein »

First of all - vendui riluss! I haven't been active on this forum for a long time, follwing a string of rather distressing events in RW. When NWN2 was released I slowly found my way back to all this and now I'm back here too.

My two copper pieces on the changedance issue is this.

While I sympathize with those who think it is wrong for Eilistraee to have gender bias, I think much of the critizism comes from viewing her from a modern monoteistic perspective. The Frogotten Realms is a polyteistic world. In polyteistic religions different gods have different portfolios. If you need a good harvest you pray to the nature god/godess and so on. Some gods a all female, some all elvish etc. If anything the problem is in the drow pantheon as a whole, not with Eilistraee herself. And the problem won't be less with the current purge of drow gods.

Another part is simply the fact that some things a part of the fantasy package. From a strictly modern day sense I would find it very disturbing that all these allegedly good gods of Faerûn all favor monarchy over representative democracy. But since I want to play in a quasi-medival fantasy setting and I want it to have kings and queens, I just let it slide.

That said I have some issues with the changedance and how it is portrayed. I do not buy the idea that it is necessary for men to go through the ritual to get in touch with a more caring female aspect. Most of the drow who follow Eilistraee are moulded in a drow society. Everyone needs to learn about caring. I don't see a drow matron mother worshipping Lolth has a one-up on a downtrodden male on the issue of caring. Most evil drow are as vicious to their children as to everybody else, regardless of their gender.

The ritual would be more realistic if it was portrayed as a mythical representation of the way women today may be forced to wear suits and sound like men to be taken seriously by men in some segments of society. Cetainly I can see a need for drow females to be forced to see things through the male perspective as they are the opressed side.

As far as I know, the whole underdog theme has been Vhaeraun's big selling point all along.

Finally I can't help but comment on the issue of men and women and caring in RW. I believe that men and women love their children just as much. It's true that women have a head start. We men do not get a chance to bond with our children until they are born. The real issue however is that men and women have different values about how they express their care. So I seldom buy clothes to my children and spend way to much money on toys for them instead. It no doubt makes me an exasperating husband, but I dare anyone to tell me it means I love my children less than my wife does.
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Post by Tsa'drin »

Thanks Sancha and Xandurpein for expressing much of what my points were...(the packpeddling/retconning...and caring dynamic of male/female, especially)
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Post by Argoth »

From what I can see now this conversation has got to a point, from which it is unneccesery to go farther. I would conclude, that some can go beyond the modern RW monotheistic view, and some still look throug it like glasses. I don't judge anyone. It's your right to look at things like this. We all had our arguments. I see your point. But I also see the right for the Maiden to do so, as she wishes (and actually does). And I stick to Her. No offence ment.
Although we may have different views I still hope you will call this place home, and learn the answers you are looking for. Inside you. As painful as it may be. Like I did. ;)
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Who would have thought a bard like myself would be so sophisticated?? :p
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Post by Xandurpein »

I can only second Argoth hope that we can all agree to diagree. Let me also say that I fully endorse the idea that in a polytheistic religion, like in Faerûn, some gods may place restrictions on whorshippers and clergy that seems arbitrary or intolerant seen in a monotheistic view.

I apologize if I helped keep part of the discussion off-topic by taking the bait about women and men in RW.

Please understand that some of the things I wrote are not aimed at those who have decided to stick with Eilistraee no matter what, but rather to the developers that decide what will happen in the future.

I don't think I'm the only one being a little jittery about the fact that we do not know what is happening to our favourite goddess. More than one person on this forum have experessed the opinion that they may well forgot about Faerûn alltogether if Eilistraee gets changed beyond recognition.
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Post by Shir'le E. Illios »

The way I’d [i:z72elyq2]like[/i:z72elyq2] to see the Changedance is that it’s there, it exists, and followers can use it if they want, but it’s not required (at least not by Eilistraee).

I can see how some, if not most, drow (particularly) male followers might feel that they need it to feel closer to their goddess (whether that’s true or not is irrelevant, all that matters is what they believe is true). And I can see how some Eilistraeen communities (as Eilistraee tends to have a lot of very small, widely scattered communities) might even require it of their male priests (which would be more of a sign of the priestesses being somewhat intolerant and having trouble leaving behind the supposed gender superiority that Lolthian society has taught them). But in no case would it be something that Eilistraee requires of her followers in general.

That way, I think, we might be all getting what we want... more or less. ;)


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Post by Tsa'drin »

I suppose I get up in arms about such broad based statements as "to learn Empathy a male needs to become female when following Eilistraee" would be the same as someone else claiming "In order to fight well, a female needs to become a male when following Tempus".

Just food for thought.
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