Forgotten Realms 4E Only Three Books

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Navarion
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Postby Navarion » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:54 pm

I finally bought the new FRPG a few weeks ago to see if some things could be salvaged for my own FR. There is a lot of nice stuff in there, even though some things have to be reworked (like element-changing genasi) or made completely from scratch (like aasimar or channel divinity and chosen utility powers for all gods that are a) evil, b) dead for those idiots or c) reduced to exarch of another god >:( ) I could even like some of the stuff the spellplague did, except where Abeir was fused to Toril, that was just a very bad way to bring in Dragonborn and primordials.

I also looked at the FRCG and was horrified. There is nothing usable in there that I couldn't get from the old CG better.

But the worst that they did was in Dragon. The epic destiny "Redeemed Drow". The final reward is that you where others become gods, immortal champions, rulers of hell etc. are reborn as a pinkskinned elf.... >:( >:( >:( >:( Thank Eilistraee the rest of that article was better.

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Aylstra Illianniis
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Postby Aylstra Illianniis » Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:34 pm

Eilistraee dead in $th ed?! Wow, am I ever glad i stayed away from it. I stay away from drow rangers for the same reason. Don't get me wrong, I love Drizzt. He was way cool when he started out, and I still love the new books- especially that he (finally) got with Cattie-Brie.
But as for gaming, I prefer to use diferent classes- my two drow PC/NPCs are a bard(he's actually a battledancer, which is a class I made just for him- somewhat like a full twenty-level dervish with some bard and swashbuckler mixed in) and a cleric/bard female. Both are Eilistraeens, simply because it makes the most sense for a good drow. Meilikki? Not in MY realm!! Rangers? Nope.
By the Dark Maiden''s grace do we meet. May she guide and protect us.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

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Argoth
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Postby Argoth » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:03 am

Hey Aylstra, what issue of Dragon was that, with the Redeemed Drow? Can you give a little more insight?

As for me, I've browsed through more or less the books for 4th ed D&D and what hit me the most is the reduction of skills to 17 undividable skills. No more Silent Walk and Hiding and things like that, its just Stealth now. No more knowledge on various things (a separate for arcana, religion and stuff) its just Arcana now. No more Spot and Hearing, its just Perception.

What's more about what's changed? Well, no longer do you roll for HP points when leveling up, each class has a starting value and a fixed number the character gets while advancing. The only variable is the Con score you add at level 1. And that's just about it.

No more spells like we knew them, no sir. Up till 3.5 ed it made perfect sense. Sorcerers had magic flowing in their veins and didn't use spellbooks, their magic was intuitive. Wizards' magic was mechanical, they had to learn each spell separately. And what's more, the spells were the same. Now each spellcasting class has a completely separate list of "powers" they use a number of times daily, and since the Spellplague and Mystra's death, no one actually knows, where the magic comes from? The weave existed because of Mystra and Shar for the Shadoweave. Shar is still alive, so probably all spellcasters utilize the energies of what remains of the shadoweave, or something. The second thing regarding magic is that, for example, the Warlock, who makes a pact with some entity (be it cellestial, fey or hellish) and utilizes that entity's power, the wizard is a mystery. I didn't quite get into the details yet, but I'm well on the way.

What else sucks? It's no longer anyone can do anything. If you decide upon a class, there's no diversity left. You can't take on a few levels of a rogue, a few of a fighter and a prestiege class. The whole path is divided into three steps. Level one, your already above average people, 10 levels of the so called heroic tier. Levels 11 to 20 are the Paragon tier (a different class that still HAS TO correspond to the previous one, be it because of race or class) and the last, levels 21 to 30 is the epic tier, where you can become, say a demigod at the end. And this is actually very, very fortunate, as should someone create an official campaign, or submit such a campaign to the Dragon magazine and get accepted, there is a chance that a female cleric might eventually ascend into godhood, making a pact with Corellon and bringing Eilistraee's portfolio back, or simply create a new Eilistraee, like Mystra over past ages.

Drow are pussies. Should anyone want to play a drow character, apart from being cool, its not what it used to be. Hell, the drow race is even weaker than the Eladrin race. Elves as we all knew them are now divided into: Eladrin (the mystical race of fey with the capital on Evermeet, like hell it should; the Eladrin are closest relatives of drow. One of the race-related Paragon classes is the 'something-warlock of Evermeet, and the illustration shows a Lythiiri, meaning a redeemed drow with dark brown skin and white hair. This is probably the best way to go with character that continues his/her life after Eilistraee's defeat and surviving the Spellplague. If Argoth were to appear in 4th ed, that's how he would be "built" from a technical point of view.); Elves , which are like Tolkien's elves living in Lorien, or previous Wild Elves, the wild rangers living in the woods; Drow whose only reminder of the previous edition is a crippled (1 turn working only) ball of darkness that conceals only the character and his/hers closest surrounding, and fey lights, again a power that lasts only 1 turn. And that's it! No more racial protection against magic, no more levitations, no nothing apart from those two powers and the usual +2 Dex and Int (I think) elf and eladrin bonus. In short, it sucks.

What's more: Every character is alike. Remember the three types of gaining proficiency in combat? With lvl 20 the fighters had 20/15/10/5 and the wizard had 10/5. Now there's no such thing. I don't actually quite get the system there, and I don't have a clue how the fighting works. Every character can do everything and nothing at the same time. No more role-play, now it's all about fighting. The powers, the simplified skills, even the character sheet represents the new attitude. AC has 7 separate spaces that can be summed up to give the actual value. Initiative has 3 separate factors.

My 3.5 ed bard was a character capable of doing actually anything. The right combination of limited feats and a lot of skills made him a perfect spy and a very proficient fighter (with a Dex bonus for melee instead of Str, two small weapons with an extended Critical hit to 15-20 and 17-20 in the offhand) made him a very deadly warrior even under level 10. Plus he the drow racial traits made him a power not to be take lightly.

What's more? Characters are equally powerful, be it a wizard of a fighter, doesn't really matter any more. If you want to chop your way through a campaign you take a fighter. If you want to blast your way through, you take a Warlock or Wizard. It sucks.

And in the core player's handbook doesn't even include the Bard class. It's included in the Player's handbook 2, or even somewhere else.

To be continued...

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Argoth
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Postby Argoth » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:57 pm

More rumblings from my side...

I've mentioned that classes have been made more or less equal. This is represented by a significant change in test-taking mechanics, as each test includes a 1/2 level modifier, rounded down. Most of the tests include this modifier.

What else? Determining the Fort, Will and Ref saving throws you add an ability mod from one of two abilities, whichever is higher. A fort saving throw includes either a Str mod, or Con mod and so on.

Everything's changed. It looks more like any other MMORPG system. It's like pnp Lineage 2 (if anyone's played the game) or Diablo. Role-play has left D&D and was replaced by hack and slash, and burn down everything in sight. Even the language used indicates the significance of the change of attitudes. "The bonus is usually taken from a neck slot item." A neck slot item? Please. Each character is now a lean, mean killing machine, with no RP possibility. The players get "powers" they use in battle.

I don't know what more can I say. It sucks. And that's just about the only thing I can say about the edition. I now know how much the Forgotten Realms have changed.

Oh, and the Underdark collapsing? Imagine Germany suddenly collapsing leaving a whole in the ground 700 km wide!

That's enough of my rumbling...

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Aylstra Illianniis
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Postby Aylstra Illianniis » Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:41 pm

Dragon issue? Are you referring to my Battledancer? Sorry to disappoint, but it's not form any dragon, or rulebook, or anywhere else. This was a class I created specifically for the character, out of material from Complete Warrior, Player's Handbook, and the drow guide Plot and Poison (Green Ronin D20 books0. It is basically a bard-based class, with a focus on dance as the performe skill rather than strictly singing or playing. Yes, he still does both ofthose as well, but the class is more combat oriented, playing on the idea of combat as a dance.

I originally just used a bard/swashbuckler gestalt, with a dervish prestige, which was pretty powerful all things considered, but it wasn't quite what I wanted, so I reworked it and added/subtracted a few things here and there until I had something really cool and unique. Now whenever he starts singing, it's just as likely to lead into his dervish dance as it is to buff the party. Which makes him a really fun character to play once he starts slashing his way through foes in the wild abandon of the dance, kinda like a barbar on an X high at a rave, LOL!!

Well, I did try to play 4th ed ONCE. I had as hard a time figuring out the system as you seem to have, and hated it just as much. All the PC's I have always loved to play in the past could not fit into the new system, and I could not see making a new one just for it. My Moon Elf Half-Gold Dragon Pali/Bard? Nope. My pet nasty Morganna, the Drow/Moon Elf Assassin/Wizard? Nope. My "Oriental" Wood Elves? Nope. WHY did they screw with the elves so much??!!! Even my Gnome Pyromancer/Master Alchemist would not fit in 4th ed- which is probably just as well, since he has a tendancy to blow things up everywhere he goes. (He has the flaws Clumsy and Pyromaniac- a very bad combination in ANY race, much less a gnome...)

From what you say, Argoth, it sounds like 4th ed may have just killed the franchise. *sob* I'm going back to my comfortable little 3.5 world now....
By the Dark Maiden''s grace do we meet. May she guide and protect us.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

A link to my tales, including my Marvel hero!:
http://mickeys-tavern.com/index.php?showforum=188

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Argoth
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Postby Argoth » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:33 am

I was rather referring to the 'redeemed drow' class, or race, or whatever it was. ;)

Everything is even more drenched in magic as it was before. I still didn't find any rules regarding two weapon fighting, for example. What's more, casters are likely to use wands to channel their spells and magical effects, often adding powerful bonuses from those objects.


Oh and I do remember someone stating that 4th ed will go only with three, max four books? I've seen at least 10 right now. These are as follows:

Player's handbook 1
Player's handbook 2
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual 1
Monster Manual 2
Adventurer's Vault
Forgotten Realms Player's Guide (which is not the same thing as the Player's handbook)
Martial Power
Divine Power (a likely event is publishing an Arcane Power handbook)
Manual of the Plains.

They just can't keep away from the cash...

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Argoth
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Postby Argoth » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:34 am

Not to mention a series (a hell of a load) of articles in Dragon Magazine. About a couple dozen issues for that matter.

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Aylstra Illianniis
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Postby Aylstra Illianniis » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:31 pm

Argoth:
"I was rather referring to the 'redeemed drow' class, or race, or whatever it was."

Ah. I see now. I have no idea what ish it was, you'd have to check the WotC site, I don't subsrcibe to their now totally on-line Dragon. I hate that they made it on-line only. Now I can't just walk into a store and pick up just the issues I like or want. They lost at least one customer when they made it on-line only. So stupid. I can't pay to keep up a subscription- that was why I bought them at the bookstore! Wonder how many other people dropped it because of that?

I'm curious about this "redeemed drow" thing too, but that does sound like it sucks!
By the Dark Maiden''s grace do we meet. May she guide and protect us.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

A link to my tales, including my Marvel hero!:
http://mickeys-tavern.com/index.php?showforum=188

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Argoth
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Postby Argoth » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:08 am

Well, there's more than one way to get your hands on an electronic issue of the magazine... I'll try to look it up. In the meantime I've got together with my former gaming group and its awesome to play with them again.

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Postby jameslt0 » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:37 pm

Argoth wrote:I was rather referring to the 'redeemed drow' class, or race, or whatever it was. ;)

Everything is even more drenched in magic as it was before. I still didn't find any rules regarding two weapon fighting, for example. What's more, casters are likely to use wands to channel their spells and magical effects, often adding powerful bonuses from those objects.


Oh and I do remember someone stating that 4th ed will go only with three, max four books? I've seen at least 10 right now. These are as follows:

Player's handbook 1
Player's handbook 2
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual 1
Monster Manual 2
Adventurer's Vault
Forgotten Realms Player's Guide (which is not the same thing as the Player's handbook)
Martial Power
Divine Power (a likely event is publishing an Arcane Power handbook)
Manual of the Plains.

They just can't keep away from the cash...


The Arcane Power handbook was released before Divine Power.

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Argoth
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Postby Argoth » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:02 pm

I posted it in random order...

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jameslt0
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Postby jameslt0 » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:04 pm

I was only commenting on the "likely event" part of your post.

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Aylstra Illianniis
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Postby Aylstra Illianniis » Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:45 pm

Argoth wrote:Well, there's more than one way to get your hands on an electronic issue of the magazine... I'll try to look it up. In the meantime I've got together with my former gaming group and its awesome to play with them again.


If you find it, could you give me a link?
By the Dark Maiden''s grace do we meet. May she guide and protect us.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

A link to my tales, including my Marvel hero!:
http://mickeys-tavern.com/index.php?showforum=188

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Argoth
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Postby Argoth » Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:01 pm

Sure. It's also likely I will post the whole thing here.

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Argoth
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Postby Argoth » Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:40 pm

As has been said, here it is. I've checked where it might be, and it was in Dragon issue 367. As I've stated previously, the 4ed advancement charts are divided into 3 tiers: the heroic tier, paragon path and epic destiny. Now we all know the 3.5 ed mechanics offered a chance to ascend into demigodhood, after reaching level 40 or so and doing things far, far beyond mere mortal competence. I remember playing a campaign once, where a 6 person party of 14-15 level characters took on something that was a fallen god, but far, far lesser in might than might seem.
Now the 4ed offers anyone, and I do mean EVERYONE the path to immortality once over level 30. The usual textbook sentence that appears in ALL epic destiny tiers is "as you complete your last quest..." and this is followed by something like "you ascend into godhood" or "you leave mortal coils and bounds of flesh and bone" followed by something like "you are immortal, a god, a demigod, become a part of the divine essence of some god...".
Now the "Redeemed Drow" epic destiny has a very disturbing description which relates to all the events of the Lady Penitent series, namely "nothing you do can ever change the fact that you are drow - a dark elf, a living symbol of mortal corruption and vice - and throughout the rest of your days, you must bear the burden of understanding that nothing you do can ever lift the stain that darkens your heart.".
And now the most painful part: "True redemption: Upon completing your last quest, you were plucked from the mortal world and escorted by Corellon's trusted servants to make your final journey to his dominion in the Astral Sea..." Then there's a description of being judged by Corellon, standing directly before him and... "In the blink of an eye, you awaken once more, your soul contained in a new infant body. As you take in your surroundings, your memories of the past fade as you take in the long, rich life that lies before you."

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, there is no mention whatsoever what race you are later on. All that is of drow in the character vanishes. Truly, the drow for ever belong to Lolth. This sucks.

And no, I did not even pay a cent for the books. I just had a couple of glimpses at them. I dare not contribute to this mockery of the world I've fallen in love with.


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